General : Virgin Media & UKTV+ITV Channels

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by RobboEdin

An increase of 0.4% is statistically insignificant and smaller than the other decrease %s.

I don't think that UKTV think it's statistically insignificant to be losing £1m per week!

[dodgem22]

Originally Posted by japitts

A quick glance around the Twitter-sphere and it's all gone very quiet on there since last week. Virgin keeping court and repeating "constructive talks", UKTV still encouraging other providers albeit not so forcefully now.

I wonder if there are still active efforts being made....

I have asked VM that on twitter and they gave the standard copy and paste answer I have directly asked UKTV twice and they have not answered the question. My educated guess is a no there are no active efforts.

[RobboEdin]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I don't think that UKTV think it's statistically insignificant to be losing £1m per week!

You missed my point. All channels were watched by less people, except one whose figures went up by a very small number which I was saying was insignificant.

[RichardCoulter]

If the channels don't return to VM, this could have an effect on the carriage agreement with Sky when that is up for renewal (I think the current agreement is about a year old, no idea how long it was for though).

Sky may do a similar thing as VM and seek to cut carriage fees for the pay channels (rumoured to be by 50%), in the knowledge that if they came off Sky too, they probably wouldn't be viable.

UKTV would either have to accept this or may decide they are better off making all their channels FTA. In practice, I imagine that they would close their HD channels and prune their existing SD channels. A big part of the business model for their FTA channels is to be on Freeview (the most popular TV platform in the UK), but their simply won't be room. Capacity is already almost full and due to be reduced further in the future.

I suppose they could also consider a standalone subscription model, but after the additional costs and the fact that they wouldn't get as many to sign up as they would have by going with Sky, it probably won't be worth it.

50% of the profits go to the BBC to keep down the licence fee and/or invest in new programming, so this would have an effect on the BBC and its TV Licence payers too.

[batchain]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

If the channels don't return to VM, this could have an effect on the carriage agreement with Sky when that is up for renewal (I think the current agreement is about a year old, no idea how long it was for though).

Sky may do a similar thing as VM and seek to cut carriage fees for the pay channels (rumoured to be by 50%), in the knowledge that if they came off Sky too, they probably wouldn't be viable.

Same applies if the channels do return, since it will mean UKTV accepting a lower offer from Virgin while Sky presumably pays them more under their current contract. So either way, UKTV are screwed.

Liberty Global's CEO Mike Fries said today that the impact of the UKTV channels being removed from Virgin has been 'minimal' and the Virgin/LG position on retransmission fees remains 'intact' after the ITV deal which will instead deliver more HD, 4K and non-linear rights at an attractive price.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by batchain

Same applies if the channels do return, since it will mean UKTV accepting a lower offer from Virgin while Sky presumably pays them more under their current contract. So either way, UKTV are screwed.

Liberty Global's CEO Mike Fries said today that the impact of the UKTV channels being removed from Virgin has been 'minimal' and the Virgin/LG position on retransmission fees remains 'intact' after the ITV deal which will instead deliver more HD, 4K and non-linear rights at an attractive price.

If the UKTV channels do return and VM get them at the lower price they wanted, i'm sure that Sky and BT will use this as a reason to expect a similar reduction in carriage fees. As you say, either way UKTV are screwed. The only way they won't be is if UKTV returns to VM at the original cost, which is looking very unlikely.

If this is how things pan out, maybe it will be tried with other channel providers.

As for ITV, it's interesting that no retransmission fees were paid after ITV ramped up the pressure. I'm pretty sure that ITV will have got a good deal to compensate for this in other ways, whilst VM can still claim to have stood firm with regards to refusing to pay this extra charge.

For example, there was a public outcry that the Queen was exempt from paying Income Tax, so she started paying it. However, she also started paying an equivalent amount less to the treasury than she had been doing under another agreement so, in effect, paid no more or less! The Government could then legitimately claim that the Queen had started to pay Income Tax like everyone else.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

If the UKTV channels do return and VM get them at the lower price they wanted, i'm sure that Sky and BT will use this as a reason to expect a similar reduction in carriage fees. As you say, either way UKTV are screwed. The only way they won't be is if UKTV returns to VM at the original cost, which is looking very unlikely.

If this is how things pan out, maybe it will be tried with other channel providers.

As for ITV, it's interesting that no retransmission fees were paid after ITV ramped up the pressure. I'm pretty sure that ITV will have got a good deal to compensate for this in other ways, whilst VM can still claim to have stood firm with regards to refusing to pay this extra charge.

For example, there was a public outcry that the Queen was exempt from paying Income Tax, so she started paying it. However, she also started paying an equivalent amount less to the treasury than she had been doing under another agreement so, in effect, paid no more or less! The Government could then legitimately claim that the Queen had started to pay Income Tax like everyone else.

I think Virgin Media have scored a double whammey success with the UKTV and ITV situations, despite upsetting a few viewers.

UKTV was pretty poor value for money overall and ITV content has been enhanced without them having to succumb to the retransmission fees. Now, hopefully, they can concentrate on improving their TV offer.

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 ----------

Originally Posted by RobboEdin

You missed my point. All channels were watched by less people, except one whose figures went up by a very small number which I was saying was insignificant.

Thanks for clarifying, Robbo.

[japitts]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I think Virgin Media have scored a double whammey success with the UKTV and ITV situations, despite upsetting a few viewers.

UKTV was pretty poor value for money overall and ITV content has been enhanced without them having to succumb to the retransmission fees. Now, hopefully, they can concentrate on improving their TV offer.

I'm not entirely sure I'd call the UKTV situation a success by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, financially it seems Virgin are being hit less than UKTV are - but reputationally they don't exactly come out smelling of roses. And the platform is undoubtedly weaker for being the only UK TV provider not having those channels.

Perhaps the quietness is a good sign, that it's the first time UKTV have stopped stirring on Twitter etc and finally realised such things are best resolved behind closed doors. I can't help but wonder if Virgin were rather unimpressed by UKTV's Twitter post last Friday night.

I was looking through some of the UKTV reports and suchlike this past week - in one glossy they're boasting about how they increased the reach of one channel just by making it FTA. Well no sugar sherlock. And in the next breath, that's a great thing because of increased advertising income and program budget. Errr.....

On Companies House I found their 2016 accounts, admittedly these are now 18months+ old, but I think it was something like £68m profit. Trying to square maybe a mid-£70m figure now with a reported £1m a week loss, well it's hard to argue why they really do need to get back on Virgin before too much long term damage is done.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by japitts

I'm not entirely sure I'd call the UKTV situation a success by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, financially it seems Virgin are being hit less than UKTV are - but reputationally they don't exactly come out smelling of roses. And the platform is undoubtedly weaker for being the only UK TV provider not having those channels.

Perhaps the quietness is a good sign, that it's the first time UKTV have stopped stirring on Twitter etc and finally realised such things are best resolved behind closed doors. I can't help but wonder if Virgin were rather unimpressed by UKTV's Twitter post last Friday night.

I was looking through some of the UKTV reports and suchlike this past week - in one glossy they're boasting about how they increased the reach of one channel just by making it FTA. Well no sugar sherlock. And in the next breath, that's a great thing because of increased advertising income and program budget. Errr.....

On Companies House I found their 2016 accounts, admittedly these are now 18months+ old, but I think it was something like £68m profit. Trying to square maybe a mid-£70m figure now with a reported £1m a week loss, well it's hard to argue why they really do need to get back on Virgin before too much long term damage is done.

I only meant it was a success given they have addressed paying out so much for a bunch of mainly low quality channels showing a high volume of much repeated programmes that were originally provided free (outside the pay tv arrangements).

Either they will ditch those channels forever or they will come back at a cheaper price and/or additional OD content. If they don't come back, we should get better channels to replace them if they are aiming at the higher end of the market.

[muppetman11]

Originally Posted by batchain

Same applies if the channels do return, since it will mean UKTV accepting a lower offer from Virgin while Sky presumably pays them more under their current contract.

How do you know what Sky pays them ? Sky has significantly more clout than other UK pay platforms due to the size of it's subscriber base.

[japitts]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I only meant it was a success given they have addressed paying out so much for a bunch of mainly low quality channels showing a high volume of much repeated programmes that were originally provided free (outside the pay tv arrangements).

Either they will ditch those channels forever or they will come back at a cheaper price and/or additional OD content. If they don't come back, we should get better channels to replace them if they are aiming at the higher end of the market.

Ah, fair enough and thanks or clarifying - that's a fair point in that case. And yes, although UKTV provide "bread and butter" channels that any platform will certainly be weaker for not having.. the fact that that's a different way of saying "cheap" channel has certainly been highlighted by this shambles.

Mind, in the interests of fairness - I'm still not sure I agree with VM using the channel slots for duplicate channels. I would rather the slots are just killed off until such time as UKTV is restored or the slots are sold. Having duplicates there just kinda highlights the stupidity of the whole situation, for me.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by japitts

Ah, fair enough and thanks or clarifying - that's a fair point in that case. And yes, although UKTV provide "bread and butter" channels that any platform will certainly be weaker for not having.. the fact that that's a different way of saying "cheap" channel has certainly been highlighted by this shambles.

Mind, in the interests of fairness - I'm still not sure I agree with VM using the channel slots for duplicate channels. I would rather the slots are just killed off until such time as UKTV is restored or the slots are sold. Having duplicates there just kinda highlights the stupidity of the whole situation, for me.

Presumably, they only added the duplicate channels to highlight the fact that some replacements were available to compensate for the missing UKTV channels.

Some of them were good. Others, well they need to do better, and that's what I hope we will be seeing this autumn, either as new channels (in the conventional sense) or on demand.

[Mad Max]

I'd love to know the real viewing figures for UKTV, I've never really watched any of the channels, but from what I can see it was mostly loads of repeats from years ago, Dinner ladies, jeezus H! Anyway I'm glad it's been binned by Virgin, well done lads, it got me a pretty good reduction on my bills from what I was paying, more power to Virgin's elbow, keep dumping the trash!

[RichardCoulter]

Interestingly, the new channel guide includes 'BBC Worldwide' in the Mix pack and above. Could this be the VOD content that VM wanted that UKTV cannot give to them? Is there light at the end of the tunnel?

[denphone]

UKTV channels back on Virgin TV according to my V6 box....