The state benefits system mega-thread.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by denphone

Its not the staff we should be having a go at as they have to apply the rules that are laid down to them as the problem is with the unwieldy complex system they have to use..

There are good and bad staff working at the DWP as there is in any other organisation.

It does look like staff have had enough though with the Universal Credit strikes.

---------- Post added at 16:07 ---------- Previous post was at 15:14 ----------

Just had a little chuckle at BBC News.

They were interviewing Esther McVey about various things, with the straplines 'Esther McVey on austerity', 'Esther McVey on Brexit' etc.

When it came to her plans for the welfare state (and just as I returned to the room), it said 'Esther McVey on benefits'!

I was taken aback and wondering which benefit she was on, until I realised what was going on

[denphone]

Multi-million pound Universal Credit scam targets claimants.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48887753

Tens of millions of pounds of public money is believed to have been stolen, with claimants left owing hundreds, after fraudsters targeted Britain's main welfare benefit, universal credit.

The criminals exploit a loophole in the online system to fraudulently apply for universal credit and claim advance loans on behalf of people who often have no idea they are being signed up for the benefit.

This suggests that fraud rates on universal credit are about four times higher than on most other benefits.

The message board also shows the exasperation of staff that the senior leadership of the DWP are unable to stop the scam.

"To say there is a risk around UC advances is possibly the understatement of the year," wrote one staff member, who added: "Money is pouring out of the public purse like lottery jackpots every day.

"All of us 'on the shop floor' are screaming about it but nobody is listening who has any influence."

[nomadking]

But today, the long-serving official – who had been looking forward to a quiet, well-earned retirement – has turned whistleblower, feeling compelled to speak out over a new 'epidemic' of fraudulent claims following the introduction of Universal Credit.
It is an issue that her bosses are well aware of, says the woman, who we shall call Susan. Yet instead of clamping down on the flagrant, wholesale abuse of taxpayers' money, benefits chiefs are turning a blind eye to the cheats – because they are running sacred of being targeted by Left-wing critics.

...

However, senior managers at the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) have told staff to approve applications for advanced payments even when the claims are obviously fake, the whistleblower says, for fear of attracting more negative headlines.
...

But in March, amid a tide of stories claiming that the new system was causing hardship, the current Work and Pensions Secretary Amber Rudd lifted a cap on claiming benefits for more than two children and allowed claimants to be given advance payments to ease the transition.

Almost as soon as the rules were relaxed, Susan saw a sudden upsurge in bogus claims – many of them blatant. It seemed that the DWP, stung by the avalanche of adverse publicity, had decided to open the taps and let the money flow.

Nothing really that specific to Universal Credit as such. It's a result of pandering to the whingers and another aspect that we're not allowed to mention.

The forum, which is open to operational staff within job centres, says the scam is particularly rife in the north-west of England.

Link

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Nothing really that specific to Universal Credit as such. It's a result of pandering to the whingers and another aspect that we're not allowed to mention.

Link

I think you are suppose to include the link to the source? Here you go:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...g-critics.html

I want to know how you run "sacred"?

because they are running sacred of being targeted by Left-wing critics

[denphone]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I think you are suppose to include the link to the source? Here you go:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...g-critics.html

I want to know how you run "sacred"?

Another quote in the article which is deeply concerning given how much ID and verification we all have to provide nowadays.

Susan explained how ridiculously simple it was to make a bogus claim. 'When you go on the website to make your first claim, it calculates what would be due to you and tells you when you will get your first payment, usually in a month's time. But it also gives you the option to ask for an advance payment which will come to you in just three working days – and before any of the details you submitted online are verified. You can't even open a bank account these days without presenting several forms of ID and proof of address, and yet people are having advances of up to £1,500 without any verification.

[nomadking]

The Tax Credits system has always been riddled with fraud.

2008

A man who claimed more than £75,000 in benefits by inventing 16 children who did not exist to fund his gambling addiction was jailed for 20 months yesterday.
...
The fraud began when Wilshaw applied for tax credits for two of Stevenson's children who did exist and nobody asked to see birth certificates or other proof. He went on to make up the names of 16 children and pocketed more than £400 a week for them between 2003 and 2007.

2018

HMRC is struggling to control tax credit fraud and the “cracks are showing”, MPs have said. Error and fraud in tax credits cost the taxpayer £1.3bn in 2016-17 alone, and the department expects the rate of overpayments to grow further, the Public Accounts Committee found.

[denphone]

Can we be surprised when thousands of jobs have been cut across the HRMC and DWP and along with it many experienced staff.

Staff numbers have dropped from 85,309 to 82,860 in three years since the rollout of Universal Credit's full service - the current form of the benefit - began in May 2016.

And the drop is far steeper when measured from Universal Credit's initial launch in April 2013 - when there were 104,210 DWP staff.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...-cuts-17490453

The Public and Commercial Services Union (PCS), which represents people working for the government, said the staffing cuts in the DWP had been “hugely detrimental” to the ability of its members to serve the public effectively.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8988816.html

[ianch99]

The device of "Look at those poor people stealing your money! Low life ****!" has been with us for a while now. It is, ironically, a sophisticated narrative design to remove attention from the place where far more money is lost: tax evasion & tax avoidance.

It is in the interests of the wealthy and those who control our media to engineer this and so many of the people in this country fall for it.

Both areas are fraud and both need addressing but you only hear one being vigorously pursued.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by ianch99

The device of "Look at those poor people stealing your money! Low life ****!" has been with us for a while now. It is, ironically, a sophisticated narrative design to remove attention from the place where far more money is lost: tax evasion & tax avoidance.

It is in the interests of the wealthy and those who control our media to engineer this and so many of the people in this country fall for it.

Both areas are fraud and both need addressing but you only hear one being vigorously pursued.

Both need addressing end of...

Tax avoidance is not fraud. Everyone does it, and they do it legally. If you buy a new car based on its road tax band, that’s tax avoidance. If as a commercial energy user you choose your supplier so as not to pay the fossil fuel levy, that’s tax avoidance. If you choose to put your savings in an ISA, that’s tax avoidance. For as long as the tax system is used to promote or deter behaviour, then the tax system itself is promoting tax avoidance. If you want to criticise tax avoidance, then be prepared to be found guilty yourself ...

Tax evasion, on the other hand, is not paying tax due, or disguising tax liability, or exploitation of unintended loopholes in tax regulations (and hiding it). Such is illegal.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

Tax avoidance is not fraud. Everyone does it, and they do it legally. If you buy a new car based on its road tax band, that’s tax avoidance. If as a commercial energy user you choose your supplier so as not to pay the fossil fuel levy, that’s tax avoidance. If you choose to put your savings in an ISA, that’s tax avoidance. For as long as the tax system is used to promote or deter behaviour, then the tax system itself is promoting tax avoidance. If you want to criticise tax avoidance, then be prepared to be found guilty yourself ...

Tax evasion, on the other hand, is not paying tax due, or disguising tax liability, or exploitation of unintended loopholes in tax regulations (and hiding it). Such is illegal.

fraud: wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

In terms of the provision of public services and infrastructure, paid for by tax base, then those who use loopholes etc. to actively avoid paying the same effective tax rate as the majority is wrong and therefore fraud.

You use banal examples to distract from the serious point that those who have the wealth to employ active tax avoidance to minimise their tax burden should be pursued. The tax loop holes should be plugged, the "bad" laws repealed so that all sections of this society move to a more equitable effective tax rate.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Chris

Tax avoidance is not fraud. Everyone does it, and they do it legally. If you buy a new car based on its road tax band, that’s tax avoidance. If as a commercial energy user you choose your supplier so as not to pay the fossil fuel levy, that’s tax avoidance. If you choose to put your savings in an ISA, that’s tax avoidance. For as long as the tax system is used to promote or deter behaviour, then the tax system itself is promoting tax avoidance. If you want to criticise tax avoidance, then be prepared to be found guilty yourself ...

Tax evasion, on the other hand, is not paying tax due, or disguising tax liability, or exploitation of unintended loopholes in tax regulations (and hiding it). Such is illegal.

Aggressive tax avoidance schemes are nearly always found to be "not legal" in court, to use your examples or the other classic ISA's are a way of avoiding tax plays straight into the hands of people using such schemes, they're not the same as us, they're not simply doing what any of us would do as most of us prefer not to walk a tightrope of legality, why do they do it some will ask and the reason is because the fine levied is less than the inrerest earned on the cash they're still holding on to for years in some cases plus in some rare cases they do win in court.

If an aggressive tax avoidance scheme is found to be not legal in court, then it never was tax avoidance - it was tax evasion. It’s like the difference between murder and lawful killing - they are two different legal terms with distinct meanings. There is no such thing as illegal tax avoidance, just as there’s no such thing as legal murder.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Chris

If an aggressive tax avoidance scheme is found to be not legal in court, then it never was tax avoidance - it was tax evasion. It’s like the difference between murder and lawful killing - they are two different legal terms with distinct meanings. There is no such thing as illegal tax avoidance, just as there’s no such thing as legal murder.

80% of schemes are found to be not legal in court, I like the way they use the term not legal rather than illegal to, probably because right up until the final moments in court it's legality is uncertain.

I suspect the language has to do with it being the scheme that’s being considered in court, rather than a person using the scheme being on trial. Once a scheme is declared not legal, anyone using it would be liable to prosecution for tax evasion.