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PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ignored
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Old 20-11-2020, 17:04   #46
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
What are you on about? I've quoted chapter and verse from the published part of the report on Patel.

.....

Outright bullying would indeed be shameful. But that isn't so in this case.

You seem to have missed out this part of the report;

Quote:
The definition of bullying adopted by the Civil Service accepts that legitimate, reasonable and constructive criticism of a workerís performance will not amount to bullying. It defines bullying as intimidating or insulting behaviour that makes an individual feel uncomfortable, frightened, less respected or put down. Instances of the behaviour reported to the Cabinet Office would meet such a definition
If, as a manager, you are unable to give 'legitimate, reasonable and constructive criticism' without making 'an individual feel uncomfortable, frightened, less respected or put down', then you shouldn't be a manager.
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Old 20-11-2020, 17:35   #47
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

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Originally Posted by denphone View Post
The clear proof is the Home Secretary broke the ministerial code which you seem to be denying and which is something which you conveniently did not quote from the report.
I didn't deny that the report said she hadn't acted entirely within the Ministerial Code.

I was balancing your obsession with making the worst interpretation of the report.


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Old 20-11-2020, 17:49   #48
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
I didn't deny that the report said she hadn't acted entirely within the Ministerial Code.

I was balancing your obsession with making the worst interpretation of the report.


It wasnít that she didnít act entirely within the Ministerial Code, it was that she breached it.

Itís like describing running someone over on the pavement with your car as "not maintaining the agreed demarcation between car and pavement users"...
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Old 20-11-2020, 17:59   #49
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post

Andrew,

We seem to get on alright. Siding with Den in this case ignores the mitigations stated in the report. Den is intent only on the narrow piece of criticism of Patel and has so far ignored the mitigation.

Outright bullying would indeed be shameful. But that isn't so in this case.

Btw, I'm not a Patel fan. All wind and no results to date. Even Boris is doing better - at least on one issue!

Absolutely, we get on.

But Den is apolitical so I am underlining this.

I don't pretend to be an expert on the Home Secretary's career history. But I do know that the news reports have said she broke the Ministerial Code and that if they do so, Ministers are normally expected to resign.

I have sympathy with her if she wasn't informed of her bad behaviour at the time, but breaking Ministerial Code is breaking Ministerial Code and this over-ruling doesn't send the right message out to the country.
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Old 20-11-2020, 18:07   #50
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

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Originally Posted by jonbxx View Post
You seem to have missed out this part of the report;



If, as a manager, you are unable to give 'legitimate, reasonable and constructive criticism' without making 'an individual feel uncomfortable, frightened, less respected or put down', then you shouldn't be a manager.
Just remember what I was trying to achieve. Namely, balancing Den's obsession with highlighting Patel's failings without taking the degree of provocation into account.

---------- Post added at 17:07 ---------- Previous post was at 17:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
Absolutely, we get on.

But Den is apolitical so I am underlining this.

I don't pretend to be an expert on the Home Secretary's career history. But I do know that the news reports have said she broke the Ministerial Code and that if they do so, Ministers are normally expected to resign.

I have sympathy with her if she wasn't informed of her bad behaviour at the time, but breaking Ministerial Code is breaking Ministerial Code and this over-ruling doesn't send the right message out to the country.
I obviously cannot entirely fight what you've said because you've partially balanced it out.

Remember, I'm neither a fan of Boris nor Patel and, with the public being sensationalism hungry will see Boris's attitude in a bad light.

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Old 20-11-2020, 18:30   #51
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
[COLOR="Blue"]J
I obviously cannot entirely fight what you've said because you've partially balanced it out.

Remember, I'm neither a fan of Boris nor Patel and, with the public being sensationalism hungry will see Boris's attitude in a bad light.

My view is that as Prime Minister, you need to send the right message out to bullies that it cannot be tolerated. No ifs, buts or maybes.

This would have been achieved by accepting the Home Secretary's resignation. The loss of a Minister is a small price to pay to send the right message out to the country of intolerance towards bullying.
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Old 20-11-2020, 18:46   #52
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
My view is that as Prime Minister, you need to send the right message out to bullies that it cannot be tolerated. No ifs, buts or maybes.

This would have been achieved by accepting the Home Secretary's resignation. The loss of a Minister is a small price to pay to send the right message out to the country of intolerance towards bullying.
Even some form of admonishment, and with lessons learned etc., whilst keeping her post - this way the story became about the resignation.
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Old 20-11-2020, 19:22   #53
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

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Originally Posted by denphone View Post
Its pretty reprehensible that some still seem to think that bullying is acceptable in whatever form bullying takes...
Absolutely Den. I have recently been the victim of online bullying and concur wholeheartedly.
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Old 20-11-2020, 19:28   #54
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
Except when provoked by obstinate civil servants.
unbelievable your trying to justify bullying like
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Old 20-11-2020, 19:44   #55
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

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Originally Posted by Dave42 View Post
unbelievable your trying to justify bullying like
Never mind Priti is sorry if anyone 'feels they've been bullied'. Carte blanche for bullies in the workplace everywhere now.
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Old 20-11-2020, 20:16   #56
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

Can anyone give an abridged version of what she is actually accused of doing?
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Old 20-11-2020, 20:24   #57
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

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Can anyone give an abridged version of what she is actually accused of doing?
I think she offended the remoaners.
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Old 20-11-2020, 20:26   #58
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Can anyone give an abridged version of what she is actually accused of doing?
https://news.sky.com/story/priti-pat...etary-12137076

Quote:
At the time, Sir Philip revealed he had received allegations of Ms Patel "shouting and swearing, belittling people, making unreasonable and repeated demands", and argued her behaviour had "created fear".

Around the same time as Sir Philip's exit, further allegations about Ms Patel's behaviour in government also emerged, which prompted the Cabinet Office review.

There were claims a senior Home Office official once collapsed after being confronted by Ms Patel, following an unsuccessful all-night effort to reverse a High Court ruling.

It was reported that an official in the Department for Work and Pensions received a £25,000 payout after making bullying claims during Ms Patel's time as an employment minister.

There were also claims about Ms Patel's behaviour towards staff during her later spell as international development secretary.

Ms Patel was previously accused of breaching the ministerial code in 2017, when she failed to declare meetings she held with politicians in Israel.
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Old 20-11-2020, 21:03   #59
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

"shouting and swearing, belittling people, making unreasonable and repeated demands"

Shouting at people is not bullying them. The rest are just a matter of perspective, repeatedly demanding someone do their job is not 'bullying', and unreasonable is totally subjective, who says what is reasonable or not.

They may be breaking some misistrial code, but thats not the same as "bullying".

Oh, and "advice" is just that, nothing more. Sounds like a bit of a dummy spitter.
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Old 20-11-2020, 21:30   #60
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Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
I have sympathy with her if she wasn't informed of her bad behaviour at the time, but breaking Ministerial Code is breaking Ministerial Code and this over-ruling doesn't send the right message out to the country.
Hmm, contradictory evidence now arising which says she was advised about her behaviour before.
Quote:
Priti Patel was advised to treat staff with respect, says former official

Priti Patel was "advised" on several occasions to treat staff with respect, a former top official who resigned over the issue has told the BBC.

Sir Philip Rutnam said she was urged not to shout and swear at staff a month after becoming home secretary in 2019.

He said he was not asked to contribute to the inquiry into her conduct, which found she broke the ministerial code but was not made "aware" of concerns.

The home secretary has apologised for any "upset" she caused people.

But she insisted the inquiry's findings had made clear that "issues were not pointed out" to her in the course of the department's "deeply challenging" work.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55015493

Last edited by 1andrew1; 20-11-2020 at 21:34.
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