Will Scotland Leave the UK?

I don't think so. I don't think we would have got this far if Salmond wasn't around. The calibre of politicians up North seems to be poor with the good ones heading to London and he has done well as a result.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by MarkC1984

So if the campaign wasn't being run by Salmond, would people vote yes rather than no?

Possibly. If the yes campaign was honest and admitted that a yes vote came with risks rather than blindly claiming it'll be OK and smearing anyone who dares disagree then I think it might be closer still.

As it stands the ridiculous assertions that everyone will bend over backwards to give iScotland everything it wants and more with nothing in return shows just how the yes campaign is all about getting the result regardless of the ramifications.

Originally Posted by Chris

Indeed there is, unfortunately Eck and Nippy will be holding the crayons if we vote Yes.

There have always been circumstances under which I could have ended up voting Yes, but what's on offer courtesy of the SNP fills me with dread. This should never have been about their particular vision of independence, but that's what it's come down to. I just can't trust them to do the right thing.

Out of interest what circumstances would you have been a Yes voter? Always had you down as a committed, unwavering, Unionist out of principle (and being English)

The Nationalist case is that the Westminster system of government is irredeemably corrupt and incapable of governing Scotland effectively, and that only a sovereign Scottish government could adequately perform the role.

They haven't demonstrated that Westminster is as bad as they say it is. Most of their complaints are severely over-egged and are the result of party politics, not systemic failure.

On the other side of the equation, they have proposed a Scottish government that is immediately tied to Westminster anyway, via currency union, replacing a system in which Scots are directly represented in the legislature sitting in the Palace of Westminster, with a system in which they have no representation at all in the place where the currency, and therefore the entire economic system, will be controlled.

They have also bleated constantly about an incident earlier this year during which a Russian navy cruiser anchored in the Moray Firth, resulting in a RN destroyer coming up from the south coast to intercept and escort (and taking 24 hours to arrive, which apparently is a travesty), while simultaneously proposing defence arrangements for Scotland that would guarantee Scotland's complete inability to respond to a similar future incident in any effective way at all.

The "positive vision" for Scotland's future has amounted to left-wing spending commitments, accompanied by only the vaguest hints as to how any of it will be funded, and a basic ignorance of what you can promise to be the constitutional foundations of a nation and what is actually just party politics, entirely reversible from one administration to the next, as circumstances and ideology dictate.

Had the Yes campaign bigged up the differences in Scottish civic outlook, rather than slandering the rest of the UK (i.e. England) at every turn, I might have had confidence that the referendum would give birth to a truly energised, positive, forward looking nation.

Had the Yes campaign taken a realistic view of this island's needs for integrated defences, rather than trying to grab the Faslane peace camp vote by monstering Trident at every opportunity (while, simultaneously trying to craw right back under the nuclear umbrella Trident helps to create), then I might have believed the referendum would result in a confident nation with a realistic, pragmatic understanding of the dangerous world we live in and a willingness to do what's necessary to safeguard its citizens at home and abroad.

And, had the Yes campaign shown even the slightest hint of understanding of the political and economic difficulties of currency union, and engaged constructively with the issue, as opposed to threatening to walk away from the national debt of the UK and make Scotland a pariah in the money markets, then I might have thought the referendum was capable of birthing a nation with an understanding of the global economy into which it would be born, and the responsibilities that stretch beyond its borders.

But none of that has happened. Hence, a great big NO THANKS from me.

It's going to be a messy divorce..

[Wad_2002]

Originally Posted by Derek

As it stands the ridiculous assertions that everyone will bend over backwards to give iScotland everything it wants and more with nothing in return.

Really Derek??...

Please refer me to some link to me to this perception you seem to have. I find it astounding that people are in incapable of having an impartial debate.

It's just as much as a belter that Putin will invade, so keep the wmd's. I not even going to waste my time trying to counter arguing your point.

Noting personal mate.

...one concession I will make this now is that snp do need to rethink the defence policy.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Wad_2002

I find it astounding that people are in incapable of having an impartial debate.

...then....

Originally Posted by Wad_2002

I not even going to waste my time trying to counter arguing your point.

[Wad_2002]

Originally Posted by Russ

...then....

Russ... By all means, I welcome you to try and provoke a impartial debate about boths sides on this thread.

Yeah, I know it seems hypocritical, but say if, you did not agree with what he stated, then u may understand where I coming from.

People may say I am wrong, but if this the case, then I need to get my eyes and ears tested pronto

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Wad_2002

Russ... By all means, I welcome you to try and provoke a impartial debate about boths sides on this thread.

Anyway it seems hypocritical, but if say you did not agree with what he stated, then u may understand where I coming from.

This is a discussion forum. If you honestly expect a completely impartial debate about anything then you'll be in for a long wait, especially on a topic that has the potential to change peoples' lives forever.

If someone give a biased opinion in this thread then I say the forum is working.

[Wad_2002]

Originally Posted by Russ

This is a discussion forum. If you honestly expect a completely impartial debate about anything then you'll be in for a long wait, especially on a topic that has the potential to change peoples' lives forever.

If someone give a biased opinion in this thread then I say the forum is working.

I take your point on board sir and for future debates

However, one of the joys of debate is that it is informed, rather than polemical - we love to hear counterpoints*, rather than "you're wrong"...



*unfortunately, as in life, we don't always get what we want....

[techguyone]

I'm more upset with the English politicians showing their usual lack of backbone... 'please don't go, look if you stay we'll devolve you some more'... ffs

[LondonRoad]

Originally Posted by Derek

Possibly. If the yes campaign was honest and admitted that a yes vote came with risks rather than blindly claiming it'll be OK and smearing anyone who dares disagree then I think it might be closer still.

As it stands the ridiculous assertions that everyone will bend over backwards to give iScotland everything it wants and more with nothing in return shows just how the yes campaign is all about getting the result regardless of the ramifications.

Are there no risks by voting No? The political landscape will change either way.

Without smearing anybody - the NO campaign is also blindly claiming that everything will be OK with an undefined Devo-max. Have you seen any figures for this? The ridiculous assertions of the Yes campaign are matched by the condescending negativity of BT.

---------- Post added at 23:00 ---------- Previous post was at 22:26 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

However, one of the joys of debate is that it is informed, rather than polemical - we love to hear counterpoints*, rather than "you're wrong"...



*unfortunately, as in life, we don't always get what we want....

You're right

Originally Posted by LondonRoad

Are there no risks by voting No? The political landscape will change either way.

Without smearing anybody - the NO campaign is also blindly claiming that everything will be OK with an undefined Devo-max. Have you seen any figures for this? The ridiculous assertions of the Yes campaign are matched by the condescending negativity of BT.

You already know what the Union offers. No one is claiming it's perfect or that we can see the future. Better Together cannot offer anything more than what you have as it's a cross-party effort where the parties disagree on various policies. I don't think they've said everything will be OK. It won't be. Life will go on and there will still be problems facing the country. There will be problems for every generation, and the generation after that, and the one after that just as there have been for all the generations prior.

Yes has a massive advantage. They don't have reality to deal with. All their assertions and promises are for the future. This gives them considerably more leeway in promoting a optimistic vision without the realities of implication weighing them down.

No has no such luxury, the flaws are there for all to see. No cannot promise a richer Scotland because it would be here already. It cannot offer much better pensions, because rUK is having to try and cut down on the bill. It cannot not offer a job for every young person because how the hell do you do that? We don't have the money in the UK to have everything we want and since No is burdened by the reality of governance it cannot pretend it would either.

So yes it is negative. No cannot give you everything Yes is claiming they'll give you. There isn't really much that can be done about that. There isn't really much more to say.

---------- Post added at 23:17 ---------- Previous post was at 23:12 ----------

Relevant Simpsons Clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y32PWF-zxqs

[LondonRoad]

Originally Posted by Damien

You already know what the Union offers. No one is claiming it's perfect or that we can see the future. Better Together cannot offer anything more than what you have as it's a cross-party effort where the parties disagree on various policies. I don't think they've said everything will be OK. It won't be. Life will go on and there will still be problems facing the country. There will be problems for every generation, and the generation after that, and the one after that just as there have been for all the generations prior.

Yes has a massive advantage. They don't have reality to deal with. All their assertions and promises are for the future. This gives them considerably more leeway in promoting a optimistic vision without the realities of implication weighing them down.

No has no such luxury, the flaws are there for all to see. No cannot promise a richer Scotland because it would be here already. It cannot offer much better pensions, because rUK is having to try and cut down on the bill. It cannot not offer a job for every young person because how the hell do you do that? We don't have the money in the UK to have everything we want and since No is burdened by the reality of governance it cannot pretend it would either.

So yes it is negative. No cannot give you everything Yes is claiming they'll give you. There isn't really much that can be done about that. There isn't really much more to say.

---------- Post added at 23:17 ---------- Previous post was at 23:12 ----------

Relevant Simpsons Clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y32PWF-zxqs

It's moved on from the bull***** of BT and the false smugness of the Yes campaign. I'm witnessing the debate taking place in the street, in the office, on the train and in the living room. The ordinary punters have suddenly became galvanised by the referendum and it's not down to politicians or the mainstream printed media.

From being fairly convinced that I'd vote No, I've moved towards considering voting Yes. Much of the BT together campaign is based on scaremongeing; the facts as presented aren't so concrete as they had me believe, and some of it is just downright insulting to anybody with half a brain.... you won't get BBC (that'll get the Eastender fans voting no), Cancer research funding will be removed from Scottish Universities etc.

The main point that made me reconsider my position was from a colleague who turned the argument on it's head. He asked, if Scotland was already independent, would I vote Yes in a referendum to become part of the United Kingdom..... my behind is getting sore sitting on the fence while I ponder that one.

In my circles, at the moment, there is definitely a fair bit of momentum for the Yes campaign that I don't think is quite being captured in the rest of the UK. It's not quite a juggernaut so I suspect the No vote will still win.... but maybe not.

In Football terms, the No campaign were winning by 2-0 against 10 men. The yes campaign have now got a penalty and the No campaign have had their goalie sent off.....There's still 10 minutes to go...