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Sir Keirís Kerfuffle
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Old 04-05-2021, 12:04   #556
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Hom3r View Post
Both my dad and I have already done our postal vote, my dad is 77 and all his life voted Labour.


But no more, he like me have voted Tory.
Why, did you fill it in and post for him ?
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Old 04-05-2021, 12:05   #557
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

Starmer is losing Hartlepool because an increasing number of traditional Labour voters think the party stands for this sort of thing, which I am seeing pop up increasingly on the social medias:

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Old 04-05-2021, 12:13   #558
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Starmer is losing Hartlepool because an increasing number of traditional Labour voters think the party stands for this sort of thing, which I am seeing pop up increasingly on the social medias:

Labour stopped being the party of the working class a long time ago, I posted as much years ago on here.

Labour are now firmly entrenched in the politics of identity: BLM, Trans-rights, me too etc etc and most of the country doesn't give a monkeys about that. The quality of politicians within their ranks is poor, and they still haven't got their head around the fact that their previous heartlands think differently and have different issues than within their Metro-Westminster-Bubble.

They managed to lose Scotland, when they had a history of great Scottish Labour politicians and leaders - that alone made winning a general election difficult.

They are now losing the North, and once they've lost the North they'll never win a general election ever again.
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Old 04-05-2021, 12:14   #559
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Starmer is losing Hartlepool because an increasing number of traditional Labour voters think the party stands for this sort of thing, which I am seeing pop up increasingly on the social medias:


I think that isn't a problem Starmer introduced though rather one that he is trying to fight after Corbyn left that impression.
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Old 04-05-2021, 12:21   #560
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

I don't think he stands much chance of achieving that. Labour hasn't been defined by socialist economics for decades now. Its core message has long been socially 'progressive' and what was previously a party for the working class has been hollowed out and filled in by assorted cranks and pressure groups whose aims are at such odds with society as a whole that the 'scum/awful' sentiment expressed by that admittedly rather blunt satire has begun to have a ring of truth about it. You can't constantly bang on about wanting to radically change everything without sounding like you hate what's already there.
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Old 04-05-2021, 12:47   #561
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I don't think he stands much chance of achieving that. Labour hasn't been defined by socialist economics for decades now. Its core message has long been socially 'progressive' and what was previously a party for the working class has been hollowed out and filled in by assorted cranks and pressure groups whose aims are at such odds with society as a whole that the 'scum/awful' sentiment expressed by that admittedly rather blunt satire has begun to have a ring of truth about it. You can't constantly bang on about wanting to radically change everything without sounding like you hate what's already there.
It first came apparent to the electorate how endemic the issue was with the famous G.Brown incident and the "bigoted" woman, it was further underlined with Thornberry's mocking of white van man and the Cross of St George. It was then emblazoned with massive neon lights, huge Doric columns and an amazing fireworks display, when the Brexit vote was ignored, attempted to be reversed and the voters told that they were the problem.

And if the opposition continue to shoot the messenger, they will always be the opposition.
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Old 04-05-2021, 13:20   #562
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

I remember reading in Flip Chart Fairies that the sweet ground in politics which would gain most votes was being economically left wing (eg bailing out loss-making companies to retain jobs) and socially right wing (eg bring back the death sentence for some offences, don't let unskilled immigrants into the country, etc)

The Conservative Party under Johnson now ticks both boxes successfully. It has overturned previous Conservative thinking on state investment in industry. The Conservative Mayor of the Tees Valley won his seat on a promise to nationalise the local airport.

By following an interventionist approach in industry, it gives Labour less room to challenge the government and propose alternative ideas. At the moment, traditional home counties Conservative voters seem happy to go along with this approach as long as taxes don't rise but their house values do.

Last edited by 1andrew1; 04-05-2021 at 13:23.
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Old 04-05-2021, 13:28   #563
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I don't think he stands much chance of achieving that. Labour hasn't been defined by socialist economics for decades now. Its core message has long been socially 'progressive' and what was previously a party for the working class has been hollowed out and filled in by assorted cranks and pressure groups whose aims are at such odds with society as a whole that the 'scum/awful' sentiment expressed by that admittedly rather blunt satire has begun to have a ring of truth about it. You can't constantly bang on about wanting to radically change everything without sounding like you hate what's already there.

I think he can move it in the right direction.

He seems to have at least diagnosed the part of the problem: that you can't expect to lead a country you give the impression of disliking. He has been making moves to introduce some patriotic aspects to his campaigning even with things like ensuring there are more union jacks in their videos and party materials.

It's going to take a while but he may be able to correct the image somewhat for whoever takes over. Besides you can cloak an argument for change in patriotic terms. NHS = British institution. Renationalising Rail? Making the network British again. Higher taxes on multinational companies? Protecting British companies.
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Old 04-05-2021, 13:41   #564
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
I remember reading in Flip Chart Fairies that the sweet ground in politics which would gain most votes was being economically left wing (eg bailing out loss-making companies to retain jobs) and socially right wing (eg bring back the death sentence for some offences, don't let unskilled immigrants into the country, etc)

The Conservative Party under Johnson now ticks both boxes successfully
. It has overturned previous Conservative thinking on state investment in industry. The Conservative Mayor of the Tees Valley won his seat on a promise to nationalise the local airport.

By following an interventionist approach in industry, it gives Labour less room to challenge the government and propose alternative ideas. At the moment, traditional home counties Conservative voters seem happy to go along with this approach as long as taxes don't rise but their house values do.
Typical Left-Wing nonsense. I am surprised you havenít raised that old chestnut that Conservatives are just sitting back thinking of Empire!

Where has the Prime Minister said he will bring back the death penalty?

As for unskilled workers, we donít need anymore of them if we have enough of our own. This was one of the things that Brexit was all about and itís what people think. Politicians ignore what the public want at their peril.
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Old 04-05-2021, 13:43   #565
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
I remember reading in Flip Chart Fairies that the sweet ground in politics which would gain most votes was being economically left wing (eg bailing out loss-making companies to retain jobs) and socially right wing (eg bring back the death sentence for some offences, don't let unskilled immigrants into the country, etc)

The Conservative Party under Johnson now ticks both boxes successfully. It has overturned previous Conservative thinking on state investment in industry. The Conservative Mayor of the Tees Valley won his seat on a promise to nationalise the local airport.

By following an interventionist approach in industry, it gives Labour less room to challenge the government and propose alternative ideas. At the moment, traditional home counties Conservative voters seem happy to go along with this approach as long as taxes don't rise but their house values do.
An excellent analysis, imo.

---------- Post added at 13:43 ---------- Previous post was at 13:42 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Typical Left-Wing nonsense. I am surprised you havenít raised that old chestnut that Conservatives are just sitting back thinking of Empire!

Where has the Prime Minister said he will bring back the death penalty?

As for unskilled workers, we donít need anymore of them if we have enough of our own. This was one of the things that Brexit was all about and itís what people think. Politicians ignore what the public want at their peril.
OB, Andrew is referring to the minds of the red wall voters.
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Old 04-05-2021, 13:44   #566
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
I think he can move it in the right direction.

He seems to have at least diagnosed the part of the problem: that you can't expect to lead a country you give the impression of disliking. He has been making moves to introduce some patriotic aspects to his campaigning even with things like ensuring there are more union jacks in their videos and party materials.

It's going to take a while but he may be able to correct the image somewhat for whoever takes over. Besides you can cloak an argument for change in patriotic terms. NHS = British institution. Renationalising Rail? Making the network British again. Higher taxes on multinational companies? Protecting British companies.
I canít see Sir Kier himself ever making Prime Minister. His views donít align with what Labour voters think and want and he is bland and uninteresting. I hope he leads Labour for many decades to come.
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Old 04-05-2021, 14:27   #567
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
OB, Andrew is referring to the minds of the red wall voters.
I don't know if there's any stats available that imply red wall voters are any more pro or anti the death penalty than anywhere else in the country?

I know the below link is not in the so called Red Wall, but I would expect that they and anyone would want less of this:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nts-Bible.html

and perhaps if the police had been as expeditious in investigating paedophile rings as they are in arresting or investigating people like this gentleman.

It is the descent into wokeness I think people are getting sick of, when what they want is jobs, regeneration and security.
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Old 04-05-2021, 14:50   #568
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
I don't know if there's any stats available that imply red wall voters are any more pro or anti the death penalty than anywhere else in the country?

I know the below link is not in the so called Red Wall, but I would expect that they and anyone would want less of this:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nts-Bible.html

and perhaps if the police had been as expeditious in investigating paedophile rings as they are in arresting or investigating people like this gentleman.

It is the descent into wokeness I think people are getting sick of, when what they want is jobs, regeneration and security.
My mind's eye immediately got what Andrew was saying.
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Old 04-05-2021, 15:42   #569
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
An excellent analysis, imo.

OB, Andrew is referring to the minds of the red wall voters.
Here is the original publication. It's more about the average British voter than just the red wall subset.
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/upl...values-gap.pdf

"The UK in a Changing Europe is an impartial and independent organisation created to make the findings of academic research easily available to the widest possible audience."

---------- Post added at 15:33 ---------- Previous post was at 15:28 ----------

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It is the descent into wokeness I think people are getting sick of, when what they want is jobs, regeneration and security.
What do you think of this analysis?
Quote:
The voters, then, are not that keen on right-wing economics. So why do they keep voting for politicians who are? That’s where the culture war comes in. Get people worked up about political correctness, persuade them that woke liberals will take the country to hell in a handcart and at least some of them will vote for you even if they don’t like your rich men’s economic policy.

For Conservative politicians, the culture war is also an incredibly cheap way of getting votes. People still think you are socially conservative even if there is quite a lot of evidence to the contrary, which means you don’t actually have to deliver anything.

That most right-wing of prime ministers, Margaret Thatcher, did very little for the socially conservative voter. As James Ball noted after her death:

The legacy of Thatcher’s social conservatism is modest: Britain is, by and large, a nation marrying less, more accepting of homosexuality, and more accepting of people of other races.

In the 1980s the Conservatives even shied away from illiberal legislation that would have been overwhelmingly popular, such as the re-introduction of capital punishment. The liberal policies initiated during the 1960s, and the social changes that went with them, continued apace. Conservative politicians may have railed against ‘political correctness’ but they didn’t do much about it. Racist and sexist language that would have passed unremarked in 1979 was considered unacceptable by the time John Major left office. Margaret Thatcher might have talked tough talk on immigration but she did little to change the existing laws. Corporal punishment in schools was abolished by her government in 1987.
https://flipchartfairytales.wordpres...e-culture-war/

---------- Post added at 15:42 ---------- Previous post was at 15:33 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
I canít see Sir Kier himself ever making Prime Minister. His views donít align with what Labour voters think and want and he is bland and uninteresting. I hope he leads Labour for many decades to come.
You can't win elections by just appealing to Labour or Conservative supporters. You need some cross-over appeal.
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Old 04-05-2021, 16:03   #570
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
What do you think of this analysis?
I don't disagree with it, it's a bit simplistic. The problem now is that ALL politicians are afraid of the culture war.

They, like anyone in the public domain, are afraid to speak out on issues for fear of being labelled racist, anti-trans, homophobic, islamaphobic etc.

Your report is correct in this
Quote:
Britain is, by and large, a nation marrying less, more accepting of homosexuality, and more accepting of people of other races.
but the Left put across the view that we are more racist society, that we are a more oppressive to minorities society when the fact just don't support that view.

The recent report into race is a perfect example, where because it didn't fit in with the narrative, the report itself was branded racist.

If the Left (and Labour along with it) continues to move down the Culture War/ Identity Politics route it will become a fringe organisation.
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