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Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
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Old 04-05-2021, 17:01   #571
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
I don't disagree with it, it's a bit simplistic. The problem now is that ALL politicians are afraid of the culture war.

They, like anyone in the public domain, are afraid to speak out on issues for fear of being labelled racist, anti-trans, homophobic, islamaphobic etc.

Your report is correct in this

but the Left put across the view that we are more racist society, that we are a more oppressive to minorities society when the fact just don't support that view.

The recent report into race is a perfect example, where because it didn't fit in with the narrative, the report itself was branded racist.

If the Left (and Labour along with it) continues to move down the Culture War/ Identity Politics route it will become a fringe organisation.
Is that report just not a good example of the Right stirring up the Culture Wars, knowing that the reaction of the Left will jar with the average voter?
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Old 04-05-2021, 17:22   #572
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post

but the Left put across the view that we are more racist society, that we are a more oppressive to minorities society when the fact just don't support that view.

The recent report into race is a perfect example, where because it didn't fit in with the narrative, the report itself was branded racist.
The reason we've improved in these areas is that people have had these fights already. Britain didn't wake up one day and decide that women should have the vote, that racism needs to be rooted out and that homosexuality should not be illegal. People argued and protested against a wider society that did not believe these things to be true. People campaigning on racist slogans and homosexuality being illegal was mainstream within many people's lifetimes.

I am not saying that every point made by people fighting a culture war is valid nor that this is the prime concern of most voters. However, it's worth remembering that when someone is arguing against racism or for trans-rights that history does something vindicate the minorities who at the time were pushing unpopular opinions.

That said I think the Labour Party needs to focus on people's material concerns. Getting too lost in social media battles as if that reflects the day to day concerns of people of all races and genders is a big mistake.
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Old 04-05-2021, 20:01   #573
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
Is that report just not a good example of the Right stirring up the Culture Wars, knowing that the reaction of the Left will jar with the average voter?
No. The recent report on racism was a perfect example of the right (Incumbent Government) commissioning an independent report, a report that negates many of the assertions the left puts forward in the “culture wars”.

The left therefore reject the report and brand it racist.

So who on that evidence is “stirring” up the culture wars?
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Old 04-05-2021, 20:20   #574
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
No. The recent report on racism was a perfect example of the right (Incumbent Government) commissioning an independent report, a report that negates many of the assertions the left puts forward in the “culture wars”.

The left therefore reject the report and brand it racist.

So who on that evidence is “stirring” up the culture wars?
The Government set the agenda by commissioning and leaking sections of the report, knowing they would be focused on and would get a reaction. If you failed to see the media management taking place then perhaps the government spin doctors have done their jobs particularly well.
Quote:
One source we spoke to praised the handling of the report "from a comms perspective".

He said No 10 knew that a row was going to be inevitable so by briefing key elements of a contentious report in advance, it had allowed that row to take place on the government's terms.
"The government knows how uncomfortable it is for Labour to have those debates," said the source. "Some people feel their history and culture is being trashed by the Left."

But the initial communications strategy had not focused so much on what needed to change, rather on posing the question - is Britain a racist country?
There were many non-contentious recommendations in the report, and a lot of nuance, he added.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56578839
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Old 04-05-2021, 20:22   #575
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
No. The recent report on racism was a perfect example of the right (Incumbent Government) commissioning an independent report, a report that negates many of the assertions the left puts forward in the “culture wars”.

The left therefore reject the report and brand it racist.

So who on that evidence is “stirring” up the culture wars?
From the authors of the report…

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1826273.html

Quote:
“We have never said that racism does not exist in society or in institutions. We say the contrary: racism is real and we must do more to tackle it. We reaffirm the Macpherson definition of institutional racism, though we did not find conclusive evidence that it exists in the areas we examined.”

It added: “We said that ‘both the reality and the perception of unfairness matter’, which is why our recommendations are underpinned by four themes – to build trust, promote fairness, create agency and to achieve inclusivity.”
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Old 04-05-2021, 22:10   #576
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
I’ve read the report Hugh so quote away. What the report negates is the lefts assertion that the country is institutionally racist and that the system is stacked against black or ethnic minorities. It does not say that racism does not exist.

In fact your quote captures it very well.

Quote:
. We reaffirm the Macpherson definition of institutional racism, though we did not find conclusive evidence that it exists in the areas we examined.”
What it found was that the defining points around the success of an individual, for example, depended more on their social surroundings more than their skin colour, and that every ethnic group performed better than white working class ( I prefer white under class because most of their parents haven’t worked a day in their lives) kids, apart from those of Caribbean descent.

Black Africans being in the top percentile.

So to pin in it all on race is bollocks, but then everyone with half a brain over the past decade and a half has known that, but the left won’t accept it, as it destroys their narrative that everything is based on race when anyone with half a brain knows it based on economic, cultural and social structures.
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Old 04-05-2021, 22:35   #577
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

No one has ever said
Quote:
everything is based on race
but people have said "race is a major factor" (these are two different things, but some people, in an attempt to twist things, try to use them interchangeably).

So, to say it has nothing to do with race is bollocks, but then anyone with half a brain over the past decade and a half has known that, but the right won’t accept it, as it destroys their narrative that everything is simplistic when anyone with half a brain knows it based on a mixture of race, economic, cultural and social structures.
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Old 04-05-2021, 23:16   #578
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
No one has ever said
are you sure about that?

Robin DeAngelo and her institutional followers may disagree with you!

Quote:
So, to say it has nothing to do with race is bollocks,
Who said that? I didn’t, and the report didn’t “, so where did you get that from? .............or did you make it up to suit your narrative?

Btw the rest of your post as I’m sure you thought was an oh so clever way to turn it around and use the same argument against me.........wasn’t. It was pretty lame and didn’t work.
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Old 04-05-2021, 23:56   #579
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

Funny, I thought the Report was about the U.K.?

RDe’A is American, and she argues that racism is embedded throughout America's political systems and culture - we’re talking about Britain…

You stated an absolute
Quote:
So to pin in it all on race is bollocks
No one pinned it all on race - I made up no more than you did…

To be clear, I think the U.K. has made progress over the last 30-40 years in the areas of Equality (Racial, Sexual, etc.), but we still have work to do…
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Last edited by Hugh; 05-05-2021 at 00:05.
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Old 05-05-2021, 08:45   #580
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Funny, I thought the Report was about the U.K.?

RDe’A is American, and she argues that racism is embedded throughout America's political systems and culture - we’re talking about Britain…

You stated an absolute

No one pinned it all on race - I made up no more than you did…

To be clear, I think the U.K. has made progress over the last 30-40 years in the areas of Equality (Racial, Sexual, etc.), but we still have work to do…
There's still a lot of racism in this country. In many ways we've gone backwards over the last few years.
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Old 05-05-2021, 09:33   #581
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
There's still a lot of racism in this country. In many ways we've gone backwards over the last few years.
In which ways?

---------- Post added at 09:33 ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Funny, I thought the Report was about the U.K.?

RDe’A is American, and she argues that racism is embedded throughout America's political systems and culture - we’re talking about Britain…
It is about about Britain, I cited RDe'A as a very widely known proponent of Critical Race Theory, which is the current foundation of pretty much all the Left's anti-racist rhetoric. Which cites white supremacy and the "whiteness" of society being the cause of all Black oppression.

It has been imported from the USA, much like BLM, into UK academia and more worryingly into corporate thinking.

The UK report pushed back against this ideology as skin colour the being the only factor in the success or failure in the UK and highlighted a whole spectrum of factors, including class, locality, family structure, culture etc.

This report was immediately rubbished by the Left and their proponents of CRT, and they branded the report itself as racist, as they can only see the world in the terms of skin colour, which is ironically quite racist.

Attached is an excellent paper on how CRT has permeated across the Atlantic. into the UK

http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/111393/3/W...ngton-2018.pdf
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Old 05-05-2021, 09:41   #582
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

It's a thread about Starmer NOT racism so let's step carefully.
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Old 06-05-2021, 16:46   #583
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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It's not the funding, it's the hiding of where the funding is coming from.

We know that the Unions fund Labour - it's documented, so can be commented upon. We know that businesses contribute to the Tories - it's documented, so it can be queried.

If any politicians is hiding where their funds are coming from, it means they can be influenced without the knowledge of the Electorate - that is the whole point of the Members Interest Register and the Ministers Code of Conduct; transparency, openness, and the ability for other to say "hold on a minute, that group just gave you Łnnnn, and now you've passed a bill/spoken in Parliament/had a meeting with Ministers about them".

Also, it can be used as leverage if it's below the radar - "hey, remember that Łnnnn I gave you just before you supported a Bill that benefited my cause/business/Union? It would be a shame if that was leaked to the media...".

We know a lot of politicians are lying, cheating, dishonest poltroons - that's why we have processes and procedures to try and limit the more egregious exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf View Post
More like you don't like Boris and are desperate for some mud to stick, reality is most people just don't care. there are bigger things to worry about.
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Originally Posted by Paul View Post
This.

In fact, its never ending, and got tiresome long long ago.
There is always someone slinging mud to try and scrore points.
All that changes over the years is the names of the slinger and target.
This is a massive part of the problem, imo we should never get tired of rooting out corruption and dishonest practice, it should never be about liking someone as to excuse their malpractice, they need to be shamed everytime dodgy practice is uncovered whilst in and after they leave office and if the public find it tiresome, tough, it's to important to ignore and they need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law to and if the law isn't robust enough then change it
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Old 06-05-2021, 17:31   #584
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

I think part of it the selective outrage, people are angry when the 'other' side do it and will forgive their side.

But I also wonder if the MPs expensive scandal just means people don't care now. They don't really care if Johnson takes undeclared donations or if Government contracts go to their mates. 'They' are all at it and so on.
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Old 06-05-2021, 19:13   #585
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Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
I think part of it the selective outrage, people are angry when the 'other' side do it and will forgive their side.

But I also wonder if the MPs expensive scandal just means people don't care now. They don't really care if Johnson takes undeclared donations or if Government contracts go to their mates. 'They' are all at it and so on.
Probably spot on.

Does anyone on here vote for a party with the understanding that they (the party) will never, ever, take part in anything underhand, corrupt or involve telling the odd lie occasionally?

Come on, own up . . who believes their party of choice is whiter than white (ooooh am I allowed to say that? )
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