Brexit (Old)

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Angua

We still have our own laws. Our government were and are responsible for who comes here and who gets benefits. The fact our own government cannot be bothered to sort out something so simple. Yet you are more concerned about being a parochial little island, rapidly decreasing in importance, just so we can avoid being part of something bigger and more united by what they have in common, than divided by hatred and fear.

I for one would rather be inside and influencing, than outside and waving impotently.

Pragmatically I know we will leave the EU, I am just bewildered by how angry some leave supporters still seem to be.

You still don't get it. Our influence on important matters such as the CAP is negligible. Why hasn't the CAP been reformed hitherto? They promised Blair that it would be reformed in return for his signature on one of the Treaties; they reneged because of French shenanigans.

The EU is a Germany/France stitch-up. You want to be on the inside of that. Unbelievable.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I think people are entitled to be angry with people who are trying to undermine our democratic decision.

I think some would prefer the Russians influence to be brushed under the carpet, but anger in undermining our democratic decision here is well placed.

Russian trolls sent thousands of pro-Leave messages on day of Brexit referendum, Twitter data reveals

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...ets-fake-news/

[Carth]

Damn, it seems that because I don't 'do' twitter I may have missed out on some information that may have had an influence on the way I voted . . .



oh hang on, I wanted out long before some sad bugger even thought of twitter

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Carth

Damn, it seems that because I don't 'do' twitter I may have missed out on some information that may have had an influence on the way I voted . . .

oh hang on, I wanted out long before some sad bugger even thought of twitter

It's not all about you. No one has said that you missed out on anything!
Some people did receive some information from the Russians who clearly felt that they should invest time and effort in disseminating this information.

[1andrew1]

As the weekend is nearly upon us, here's a bit of humour directed at neither side that I hope everyone enjoys.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Mick

No we have not.

Again, you are including nonsense about minorities because the entire populace did not participate in an Election/referendum cycle.

Where a majority exists in a referendum, it beats the other binary option by a significant amount, in the EU Referendum, more than one million people voted leave over remain - that is not a minority.

Those who were ineligible to vote or could not be arsed to vote - do not become part of the argument, "well it was only a minority of people who actually voted", when the decision that was democratically decided, was not the right one to the losers.

You keep going on about this and it is wrong and misleading to keep bringing it up, it is irrelevant going on the principle that the EU Referendum was the largest Democratic processes undertaken, in recent British History.

I am talking about minority governance.

Bored with the referendum and the negotiations which seems to be no more than a way of trying (and failing) to hold the increasingly fractured Tory party together, whilst not upsetting the DUP in the process.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

It's not all about you. No one has said that you missed out on anything!
Some people did receive some information from the Russians who clearly felt that they should invest time and effort in disseminating this information.

Stop clutching at straws FFS.

It was 4000's odd tweets, hardly influential if at all.

I reckon, President Obama's interfering lie that the UK would be at the back of the Queue for trade, influenced more people to vote Remain than those fake twitter accounts did leave.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Pierre

There also another very important stat.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...contributions/




Bottom line is they will have a +14% hole in their budget to fill, which is not inconsiderable. So to say we are in a totally weak position is not quite true.

Absolutely. There is a great deal of 'zero summism' afoot in Brexit discussions and even Brexit policy. Neither the UK or the EU hold all the cards, it's somewhere in between. Of course, the relative impacts may differ depending on the size of the economies and balance of the types of trade.

You see it in the press and yes, even in this forum and we're all geniuses in here...

It's certainly possible to find some mutually agreeable common ground but so much comes down to politics rather than trade. Theresa May for example, must be seen to 'win' and, in a zero sum argument, the EU must lose or at least be seen to lose.

In other news, I read on another forum (sorry, I have been seeing other forums behind your back) a comment from a trade expert about the Northern Ireland situation. If the EU are offering a customs union and possibly single market for at least Northern Ireland, what about the other three freedoms (goods, services and labour) Nothing has been said about these. It looks like some red lines may have been broken somewhere, either on the UK or EU side.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Absolutely. There is a great deal of 'zero summism' afoot in Brexit discussions and even Brexit policy. Neither the UK or the EU hold all the cards, it's somewhere in between. Of course, the relative impacts may differ depending on the size of the economies and balance of the types of trade.

You see it in the press and yes, even in this forum and we're all geniuses in here...

It's certainly possible to find some mutually agreeable common ground but so much comes down to politics rather than trade. Theresa May for example, must be seen to 'win' and, in a zero sum argument, the EU must lose or at least be seen to lose.

In other news, I read on another forum (sorry, I have been seeing other forums behind your back) a comment from a trade expert about the Northern Ireland situation. If the EU are offering a customs union and possibly single market for at least Northern Ireland, what about the other three freedoms (goods, services and labour) Nothing has been said about these. It looks like some red lines may have been broken somewhere, either on the UK or EU side.

A useful analysis.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

It's not all about you. No one has said that you missed out on anything!
Some people did receive some information from the Russians who clearly felt that they should invest time and effort in disseminating this information.

'gosh' . . you mean there actually are people that believe everything they read on social media platforms


*looks at sig below and grins*

Originally Posted by Carth

'gosh' . . you mean there actually are people that believe everything they read on social media platforms


*looks at sig below and grins*

Some have their views reinforced, some are enraged, and some learn/question from what they read.

Like all media, it's how you approach it predicates what you get from it...

[1andrew1]

Sad to see this. We need to show some respect not threats to our hard-working, impartial civil servants. Their roles will become more important post Brexit.

UK’s Brexit officials targeted with death threats and personal slurs
But the personal stress suffered by Jon Thompson, chief executive of HM Revenue & Customs, only became fully apparent last week when he revealed he had received death threats after claiming that a post-Brexit customs plan favoured by Eurosceptic ministers would cost billions.
“We have had to literally change how I travel and what my personal security is,” Mr Thompson told the Institute for Government, a think-tank. “We have had two death threats investigated by the Metropolitan Police for speaking truth unto power about Brexit.”...
Cabinet secretary Mark Sedwill said in a letter to The Times that the unnamed people attacking Olly Robbins should be “ashamed of themselves”, adding: “This has to stop. Civil servants have always trusted that our fellow citizens, whatever their views, know that we are doing our duty to implement the decisions of the governments they elect.”

https://www.ft.com/content/a1def03a-...2-7574db66bcd5

The head of HM Revenue and Customs received two death threats after disclosing that a post-Brexit customs option preferred by Brexiters would cost up to £20bn, it has emerged...
Following a Daily Telegraph front-page story in December which described Tory MPs who voted against the government’s Brexit plans as “mutineers”, Anna Soubry and Dominic Grieve received dozens of threats.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-cost-estimate

[denphone]

Whether one agrees with Brexit or not there are no excuses for death threats and vitriolic abuse.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Sad to see this. We need to show some respect not threats to our hard-working, impartial civil servants. Their roles will become more important post Brexit.

https://www.ft.com/content/a1def03a-...2-7574db66bcd5


https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-cost-estimate

obviously Andrew is mainly right. However I take issue with the matter of the Olly Robbins part of the quote. He is not impartial and so far as I can see, the tail wagged the dog in so far as the ill-fated Chequers plan was Robbins’ work of dark art. Robbins the Remainer.

---------- Post added at 12:58 ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 ----------

... And another thing. If the Torygraph is to be believed, TM has gone in with her extension offer outwith Cabinet support. IMO, this really puts her in dead man’s shoes in the parliamentary sense.

John Redwood put it well on the Radio when he said that the EU would be laughing all the way to the bank as we pay more in, with our position even weaker and no intention on their part of giving way.

[Carth]

. . . a post-Brexit customs option preferred by Brexiters would cost up to £20bn


oh look there, one of my most hated sayings. I take it from the phrase 'up to' that it could cost anywhere from as little as £10 up to 20 billion then