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Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
View Poll Results: Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal?
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Old 29-05-2008, 09:42   #7456
ziggycat
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Had a reply back from the APWG.

Quote:
Mr. Evans,




We are wrapping up our in-person APWG meeting in Tokyo Japan this week. This is on the agenda for discussion today.


The rationale for allowing Phorm to join APWG is:
1. they work with major legitimate ISPs including BT and Virgin Media.
2. part of their offering is a security service to prevent consumers from visiting known phishing sites.
3. they claim to adhere to a privacy and anonymity policy that is audited by Ernst and Young.


APWG membership is open to companies who are ISPs or who provide security software or services to them. The fact that a company also provides advertising does not disqualify them from APWG membership. We have ISPs who are members of APWG who also provide advertising to their customers (eg. Yahoo, AOL, Earthlink). This does not prevent them from being APWG members and protecting their users.


The previous use of adware by the company is of concern, and will be a topic of discussion.


Thanks,
David Jevans
Chairman, APWG




APWG,

I would like to express my concern on your recent announcement that Phorm Inc. have been allowed to join the APWG.
This company has a known history (previously 121media) of using rootkit technology to deploy adware, I would therefore ask you reconsider allowing them membership to your association..

Your membership eligibility states. Quote;
"Membership is open to qualified financial institutions, online retailers, ISPs, the law enforcement community, security solutions providers and research institutions"

I don't see where Phorm Inc. falls into any of these categories.

The bottom line to this announcement is it undermines the association's credibility in the public eye. There is currently a very active online community of people who object to Phorm's use of deep packet inspection technology to intercept data and profile them based on browsing habits.

It is yet to be proved that what Phorm are proposing to do is even legal under several acts including privacy and DPA.

I urge you to further investigate this company and its history, to make an informed decision rather than a financial one, and to see beyond Phorm's PR spin.

Regards,
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Old 29-05-2008, 10:22   #7457
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Now would be the time to respond pointing out the phorm-owned pages masquerading as BT requiring that you fill in large quantities of personal details :P
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Old 29-05-2008, 10:34   #7458
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation View Post
Looking closely at the contact form on www.webwise.bt.com... the form action posts to a local resource;

<form name="contactform" action="contact_process.php" method="post">

That would mean the entire contents of the form submission are posted to the USA first. So the data *is* being processed initially in the USA (whatever the email fields, whatever the reference header, whatever the CRM system, whatever the explanation given by BT).
Haven't posted much recently, life is too hectic and this forum moves way too quickly. However, I would like to add something to the discussion of the contact page on www.webwise.bt.com.

I am not a lawyer, but I am a software engineer .

Over the years, I have worked for many companies that have pages like this on their sites. I have even worked on jobs where I have had to provide these services from one company to another and rebrand them to make them appear as though they are part of another system. For example, company A wants to use company Bs contact us page but brand it as being from company A.

This is what I believe it happening here. BT is using their relationship with Phorm to have them host and rebrand a conatct us type page to gather questions from customers.

Back in the day, forms like this would simply email the data to the approriate address for the company to read and answer. However, this type of form proved open to abuse, allowing people to use it as an open email relay. So these days the data is usually captured and stored somewhere before being sent to the company.

Given that the data is capture on a site hosted on a US server I would assume that the captured data would be stored somewhere on that server. This would be bad.

I assume that the data is being sent via email unencrypted as well. If this is the case then it is also bad.

Maybe I just see the worst in everything, but my experience tells me that all that data you enter on that form is recorded in a database over in the US and then passed back to BT over email. If that is the case then it scares the doo doo out of me.
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Old 29-05-2008, 10:37   #7459
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones View Post
Even though in reference to a query about that very contact form, during a discussion on the exact status and data security of that very site and contact form, on the forum, BT said that it was an internal BT page? "Before you start to send emails to the moderators and our abuse team about this, http://webwise.bt,com isn't a phishing site. It's merely a part of BT.com that is hosted on a different set of servers, much like bt.custhelp.com which is hosted on Right Now's servers in California. Right Now's servers also handle all of the traffic in the "Contact Us" section of BT.com just like the form on the Webwise site and with a similar level of security for handling details like your account numbers."

and even though the Webwise FAQ thread on those SAME forums say in answering question 10

"Is BT selling customer data? BT has not sold and will not sell your data. No browsing data leaves BT network and no personally-identifiable information is generated or stored by the BT Webwise service or Phorm, the company that provides the technology behind the service. We do not tie our authentication servers and systems into Phorm's systems and we do not send any other information we hold on our subscribers to Phorm."

When I add all that up, and the fact that it is all DIRECTLY with reference to the BT Webwise service and site, then I find it very difficult to accept that BT are sending my email details to Phorm when I use the BT Webwise site contact form.

I feel that they have given reassurances to me directly about my data which they have then failed to honour and which seem to me to be directly misleading.

I'll certainly let you know how I get on.
Well there are plenty of lies being told as part of the webwise faqs. I think who / where / how the webwise pages are being hosted is a legitimate cause for concern. I just don't find the fact that BT and phorm are exchanging emails about your questions surprising, thats all.
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Old 29-05-2008, 10:49   #7460
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

"Phorm and Webwise - the EC says system that will watch you online may be illegal under European Law"


http://www.mobileshop.com/blog/editorial-opinions/phorm-and-webwise-the-ec-says-system-that-will-watch-you-online-may-be-illegal-under-european-law/





NOTE: Emma Sanderson did not appreciate having Wipe-O-Matic picture beating her own uglymug official photo on Google Images, so she had it removed. Well done BT! Just goes to show when you really don't want some filthy junk you can ring up and get it taken down... pity we can't say the same about getting BT spying and WebLies removed with a couple of complaints.
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Old 29-05-2008, 10:55   #7461
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyWashngo View Post
Haven't posted much recently, life is too hectic and this forum moves way too quickly. However, I would like to add something to the discussion of the contact page on www.webwise.bt.com.

I am not a lawyer, but I am a software engineer .

Over the years, I have worked for many companies that have pages like this on their sites. I have even worked on jobs where I have had to provide these services from one company to another and rebrand them to make them appear as though they are part of another system. For example, company A wants to use company Bs contact us page but brand it as being from company A.

This is what I believe it happening here. BT is using their relationship with Phorm to have them host and rebrand a conatct us type page to gather questions from customers.

Back in the day, forms like this would simply email the data to the approriate address for the company to read and answer. However, this type of form proved open to abuse, allowing people to use it as an open email relay. So these days the data is usually captured and stored somewhere before being sent to the company.

Given that the data is capture on a site hosted on a US server I would assume that the captured data would be stored somewhere on that server. This would be bad.

I assume that the data is being sent via email unencrypted as well. If this is the case then it is also bad.

Maybe I just see the worst in everything, but my experience tells me that all that data you enter on that form is recorded in a database over in the US and then passed back to BT over email. If that is the case then it scares the doo doo out of me.
I agree that this probably what is happening (we non-lawyers should stick together!) In fact BT privacy policy implies as much

Quote:
We sometimes use other companies to provide services to you or to provide services to us. To enable them to do this, we may need to share your personal information with them. When we do so, these companies are required to act in accordance with the instructions we give them and they must meet the requirements of the Data Protection Act to keep the information secure.......Countries in the European Economic Area (EEA) are required to have a similar standard of protection of personal data but this is not always the case in countries outside of the EEA. We do sometimes transfer data outside the EEA but before doing so take steps to ensure that your data will be given adequate protection as required by the Data Protection Act.
It seems they have themselves covered legally if not morally in the fine print.
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Old 29-05-2008, 11:06   #7462
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

oh dear , what a shame, share price is sliding again :P
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Old 29-05-2008, 11:11   #7463
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicz View Post
Well there are plenty of lies being told as part of the webwise faqs. I think who / where / how the webwise pages are being hosted is a legitimate cause for concern. I just don't find the fact that BT and phorm are exchanging emails about your questions surprising, thats all.
Oh don't get me wrong - I'm not "surprised" at all -why do you think I used the contact form in the first place? I wouldn't be surprised nowadays by virtually any revelation that came out of the sewer about BT's behaviour.

But that doesn't lessen my sense of moral outrage. (I'm good at moral outrage!)

BT and Phorm are in bed together. They got married about two years ago in secret, but only announced the engagement recently (when photographs of them in a secret clinch in both 2006 and 2007 were published). The prenuptial agreement seems to have been a tough one, otherwise they might have announced a separation when the faeces hit the ventilation system a few months ago.

So given that they have a common financial interest in the success of Webwise (one that runs directly counter to MY interests as a customer and citizen) I'm ready for any revelation about their joint activities.

But I'm trying not to let my moral sensibilities get coarsened by the low ethical standards of my ISP's senior management.
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Old 29-05-2008, 11:26   #7464
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicz View Post
I agree that this probably what is happening (we non-lawyers should stick together!) In fact BT privacy policy implies as much



It seems they have themselves covered legally if not morally in the fine print.
I'm not convinced - if I've served them with a DPA notice...
"I HEREBY GIVE NOTICE to BT that until further written notice from me you must not begin processing for the purposes of direct marketing personal data in respect of which I am the data subject. The Terms and Conditions to which I agreed make no mention of intercepting data by routeing it through BTWebwise or Phorm servers or any other means of capturing, profiling, mirroring, touching, forwarding or looking at such data for any such purpose or for inspection or analysis or interpretation by third party commercial enterprises.

I also draw your attention to the Common Law right to privacy where "a duty of confidence arises when confidential information comes to the knowledge of a person in circumstances where he has notice, or is held to have agreed, that the information is confidential, with the effect that it would be just in all the circumstances that he should be precluded from disclosing the information to others." I HEREBY GIVE FURTHER NOTICE that any of my personal data that may be captured, profiled, mirrored, touched, forwarded or looked at is confidential and that BT has a duty in law to respect that confidentiality and not allow any of that data to be stored, mirrored, profiled or analysed for the benefit of a third party, notwithstanding any confidential data that BT holds that relates specifically to the normal operation of my Broadband service.".....

does that not override anything in the Privacy Policy or the T & Cs?

g
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Old 29-05-2008, 11:33   #7465
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones View Post
.....

But I'm trying not to let my moral sensibilities get coarsened by the low ethical standards of my ISP's senior management.
Well I presume that Mr Livingstone (ouch!) will be trying hard to make phorm a success:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle4023310.ece

---------- Post added at 10:33 ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnilddif View Post
I'm not convinced - if I've served them with a DPA notice...
"I HEREBY GIVE NOTICE to BT that until further written notice from me you must not begin processing for the purposes of direct marketing personal data in respect of which I am the data subject. The Terms and Conditions to which I agreed make no mention of intercepting data by routeing it through BTWebwise or Phorm servers or any other means of capturing, profiling, mirroring, touching, forwarding or looking at such data for any such purpose or for inspection or analysis or interpretation by third party commercial enterprises.

I also draw your attention to the Common Law right to privacy where "a duty of confidence arises when confidential information comes to the knowledge of a person in circumstances where he has notice, or is held to have agreed, that the information is confidential, with the effect that it would be just in all the circumstances that he should be precluded from disclosing the information to others." I HEREBY GIVE FURTHER NOTICE that any of my personal data that may be captured, profiled, mirrored, touched, forwarded or looked at is confidential and that BT has a duty in law to respect that confidentiality and not allow any of that data to be stored, mirrored, profiled or analysed for the benefit of a third party, notwithstanding any confidential data that BT holds that relates specifically to the normal operation of my Broadband service.".....

does that not override anything in the Privacy Policy or the T & Cs?

g
I expect they would just 'retire' you as a customer. It you've got a tenner to blow you can write and ask them what personal data they hold on you.
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Old 29-05-2008, 11:45   #7466
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicz View Post
Well I presume that Mr Livingstone (ouch!) will be trying hard to make phorm a success:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle4023310.ece

---------- Post added at 10:33 ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 ----------

I expect they would just 'retire' you as a customer. It you've got a tenner to blow you can write and ask them what personal data they hold on you.
Ha! I tried that - specifically over the secret trials in 06 and 07- they replied to say they didn't keep PII about those, so had nothing to impart, but they cashed the cheque!
(To be fair, someone in the legal team has just written to say he'll arrange a refund.)
g
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Old 29-05-2008, 12:02   #7467
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

How does one go about writing a news article for C/F please? I found the News page but couldn't see how to compose an article.
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Old 29-05-2008, 12:20   #7468
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

1,075.000 [img]Download Failed (1)[/img] -75.00 -6.52%
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Old 29-05-2008, 12:42   #7469
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadPhormula View Post
NOTE: Emma Sanderson did not appreciate having Wipe-O-Matic picture beating her own uglymug official photo on Google Images, so she had it removed. Well done BT! Just goes to show when you really don't want some filthy junk you can ring up and get it taken down... pity we can't say the same about getting BT spying and WebLies removed with a couple of complaints.
Just highlights the fact that BT must be watching us closely because how would Chubby Emma le-le-legal Sanderson have otherwise know about the Google Image search result?

Hi Emma


 
Old 29-05-2008, 12:58   #7470
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NTLVictim View Post
1,075.000 [img]Download Failed (1)[/img] -75.00 -6.52%
Over the last few days the trades have all been low volume.

What is quite interesting to note, is that although the share price is at what must be an all time low, there are no big investors buying in for the long term.
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