Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Originally Posted by Dephormation

Still, good news about European Commission eh?

UK.gov misses deadline on EU Phorm probe

What on earth might that mean?

Is it the same reason why the Home Office won't respond? Here too?
Or the same reason why West Mercia Police won't respond?

So what's going on?

Exactly. And I've just wasted a long jounrney scrolling through pointless diatribe, I was tempted to spin that wheel for a moment myself. We should all learn from this - ALL of us. We should be focussed on what is actually going to make a difference. Spinning that wheel does nothing whatsoever except kill time.

Why are they not answering the FOI requests quickly, why the withholding or nil answers, why the refusal to investigate fully? If Sir Paul Kennedy is so keen on encouraging the legal use of RIPA 2000 (see today's Metro newspaper front page which was on display several times over in train carriages today) - to snoop on citizens to detect and convict criminals, where is the flip side of that approach to stop the illegal interception without warrant and not for anti-criminal efforts?

Should we put in an FOI request to ask who is being consulted to complete the response to the EU letter? They don't say who is involved yet do they?

Anyone got any idea if the Interception of Communications Commissioner is bound by the FOI Act? Should we ask him what he knows? Not sure if it is a valid approach in his role - anyone know?

Hank

Originally Posted by phormwatch

OK - so any ideas about getting the issue into the mainstream press?

I've emailed Charles Arthur with the Reg article re: the EU letter...

I've just emailed BBC News.

[vicz]

Originally Posted by R Jones

Yes - lets stick to the issues, and not go round and round and round again.

The only problem is that at the moment there are so MANY things happening at the same time, all of which are incredibly bad news for this new technology and those who are trying to introduce it and have probably illegally trialled it.

interception
interference
copyright
privacy of data
consent issues
misleading trading terms and misleading advertising
congressional questions
EU questions
delays to trials
AGM embarrassment
mainstream media coverage growing daily
BT getting desperately tetchy and trigger happy
BT Group plc beginning to spring little leaks and creak at the inter-group seams, mostly at the expense of BT Retail
VM being gradually brought into the spotlight
Businesses being informed of how it will affect them
Parliament getting a head of steam up for the new session.

No - I wouldn't want to be employed defending Webwise/Phorm by BT Retail or Phorm at the moment, not for all the bonuses in the City OR the tea in China.

Lots of issues to work on, none of them involving revolving wheels.

Ertugrul says that Opt-in v opt-out is a "complete red herring and not important" ergo that is probably the killer issue we should focus on. It is succinct, easy to understand, and for phorm, deadly

---------- Post added at 21:27 ---------- Previous post was at 21:25 ----------

Originally Posted by Dephormation

You know what struck me on the way home?



Perhaps the reason BERR can't respond, the Police, the Home Office, the Cabinet Office, and all the other agencies involved aren't responding...

Is the Government is already facing legal action by the European Commission?

If it were true, perhaps it might also explain the 'emergency cabinet' called for September in the midlands?

Just guesswork of course.

It would be nice to think so, but Brown probably has other things on his mind right now .. like avoiding adding to the unemployment figures in October.

[phormwatch]

Originally Posted by Peter N

I've just emailed BBC News.

Nice one.

We need to stay focused, chaps.

[Rchivist]

Originally Posted by warescouse

Yes, only about 4-5 hours of prime forum time wasted on arguments we have all heard and seen before on this forum by the same poster. EU releases something we have been waiting to read and what are we debating? Not that letter, its unimportant
I despair at our gullibility at times.

I prefer page 2
showing the actual EC correspondence

What I found heartening was the similarity in feel of the questions to the ones that Congress have been asking ISP's over there. At last, somone with a bit of political clout is pressurising the powers that be in the same way that the Congress has been doing with US ISP's. The questions are intelligent, relevant and based on proper research - all those EU letters and MEP letters were not wasted.

It felt really good reading that letter from Fabio Colasanti

When we stick to the task in hand its amazing what we can achieve.
Add the EU to the list of organisations being REphormed by having been INphormed.

[SelfProtection]

Originally Posted by vicz

Ertugrul says that Opt-in v opt-out is a "complete red herring and not important" ergo that is probably the killer issue we should focus on. It is succinct, easy to understand, and for phorm, deadly

---------- Post added at 21:27 ---------- Previous post was at 21:25 ----------



It would be nice to think so, but Brown probably has other things on his mind right now .. like avoiding adding to the unemployment figures in October.

Be careful with the Political Angle, don't forget this pre-dates Brown taking Office; a possible "Poison Chalice" that situation is best left to run it's own course!

[Florence]

Ok All good luck in your fight I have decided to leave this thread hope you all succeed but I disagree with what has happened after posts today. One person decides to act as god on what we can discuss in the thread.

[phormwatch]

What? Who has decided what can be discussed?

Flo, please don't leave.

[vicz]

Originally Posted by SelfProtection

Be careful with the Political Angle, don't forget this pre-dates Brown taking Office; a possible "Poison Chalice" that situation is best left to run it's own course!

What I mean is that in the unlikely event that phorm is on Brown's radar at all it will be way down his priority list. The political angle is that the incompetence, bureaucracy, buck-passing, waste, spin and sleaze that has failed to deal with BT and phorm is typical of the decline in standards in public administration since 1997.

[Rchivist]

Originally Posted by SelfProtection

Be careful with the Political Angle, don't forget this pre-dates Brown taking Office; a possible "Poison Chalice" that situation is best left to run it's own course!

I think it is best to leave party politics out of any public statements, but to be aware of party sensibilities, and make sure you approach the right person to do the right job. Be savvy and remember who you are dealing with, whether a party politician, a business or a regulator. What are THEY most interested in? What rocks THEIR boat? Do they need a bit of "persuasion"? In which case, how can you give them an incentive?
If they are an opponent - what are they most scared of?
If an ally - what would be most helpful to them?

Try and leave your own party politics at the door. I've found politicians of parties I don't care much for, can be surprisingly decent people and very helpful if you don't slag them off unthinkingly.

For example, pursuing the EU angles, may work better with LD politicians than Conservative ones - maybe the latter will respond more sympathetically to what the US Congress are up to.

Be aware of internal issues re: Labour leadership politics at the moment. To know what a Labour MP will do requires a fair bit of research! Are they lobby fodder or do they think for themselves, or are they born rebels who just like making trouble for a minister they don't like?

Think carefully about balance of power within Tory circles vis a vis David Davies etc.

Remember that the bigger the department the less the Minister/Sec of State will know about any particular issue. Their first priority is usually what is on the front page of the Sun and the Times (Mr Murdoch's papers). We aint there yet.

But if they can be taken to the window and shown clear simple embarrassing evidence of skullduggery, and the fact that it is already in the public realm or soon will be, and that THEY will be held responsible for dealing with it, then they will act, or at least want to LOOK as if they are doing something (what in Yes Minister was usually called a "full leak enquiry" whose aim was to keep everyone happy and NOT find out the source of the leak).

Often you AREN'T going to actually find the smoking gun, but that doesn't matter. The very fact of worrying about the smoking gun, and having to work hard to bury it, can result in a project being ditched, just to keep everyone happy and encourage the hunting dogs to go after something else. Suits me if the project they ditch is DPI.

Remember that the problems inherent in some government departments are way bigger than party politics or any one government, Home Office being a case in point, and DBERR being another. These departments have cultures, and long standing problems, vulnerabilities and weaknesses. Both have a very strong aversion to daylight. So pull the curtains wide and let the sun in.

I would recommend anyone to read the full set of Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister, and remember that Mrs Thatcher never missed an episode if she could help it - most politicians say it was far more accurate than anything else ever written about politics. I think I should get mine down and read them again and see if I can find an episode or two about Phorm and BT.

There are people who want to help us, if we respect the political realities they all work under.

I have a feeling the media side of things is working well. The damning news is out there and the right people are seeing it and now what it could mean.

Now we are into politics and that is a much more crafty business and it will require discipline and some subtlety and sophistication. Politics will be getting something DONE about this wretched technology. Politicians need to see what it is going to cost them. They thought DPI was all gain for government, and no loss. We need to convince them it isn't worth the security gains they thought it might bring them, in fact it could make things worse, proabably already has.

We need important people to be angry about what BT have done, and what certain culpable wrong headed officials have done in Home Office and DBERR to create this embarrassing mess.

[davethejag]

Originally Posted by phormwatch

OK - so any ideas about getting the issue into the mainstream press?

I've emailed Charles Arthur with the Reg article re: the EU letter...

Hi, I e-mailed most of the Daily Newspapers recently with the latest EU news ref. Phorm etc. and added the link to the Good ZDNet article covering the Barbican, the case file handed in to the police and Baroness Miller etc. I did not get an acknowledgement from any of them! Keep the good work up all of you.... and please stay Flo.

Dave.

[Dephormation]

Originally Posted by davethejag

Hi, I e-mailed most of the Daily Newspapers recently with the latest EU news ref. Phorm etc. and added the link to the Good ZDNet article covering the Barbican, the case file handed in to the police and Baroness Miller etc. I did not get an acknowledgement from any of them! Keep the good work up all of you.... and please stay Flo.

Dave.

I've been in touch with a few journalists too.

(Don't want to publish names here, PhormPRCutPasteNinjaSockPuppet will obviously relish a 'must call' list helpfully provided by me).

Originally Posted by Dephormation

I've been in touch with a few journalists too.

(Don't want to publish names here, PhormPRCutPasteNinjaSockPuppet will obviously relish a 'must call' list helpfully provided by me).

In that case I've written to Farmer's Monthly, Plastics and Rubber Weekly and Playboy.

That should keep them busy for a bit.

Originally Posted by Florence

Ok All good luck in your fight I have decided to leave this thread hope you all succeed but I disagree with what has happened after posts today. One person decides to act as god on what we can discuss in the thread.

Don't go Flo

Only two types of people dictate what I post on this forum and they are the ones who have the shiny badge under their names which says Moderator or Administrator.

I am not afraid to debate with those who disagree with me because if I give them enough rope they tend to hang themselves.

Someone on this forum would do well not to take themselves so seriously...

The one attribute which probably gives us an advantage over the money grabbing individuals we are fighting is that:


We're just people

[mark777]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08...ates/comments/

In the comments section of The Register Home Office/Phorm article of the 11th, David Pollard makes a very good point. (21:24 GMT).

If the Home Office didn't know about the trials, where many tens of thousands of UK citizens had their communications intercepted for extended periods, then they have fallen down very badly on their national security remit.

Even if BT hadn't told them, they should have known.