Guns For Self-Defence

[Russ]

The US is very different from Britain, many people say we're about 10 years behind you in lots of ways but I cannot see the day when our culture is so closely centred around guns as yours is for a long long time.

It's not what I'd call a fair comparison.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Sarge

If we gave up our weopons then it is true that only the criminals would have them

<irony>

So your Police are criminals...???

</irony>

However the point is that we're discussing the situation *in this country* where, at the moment, gun ownership is still (thank the gods) pretty rare and it's much less likely that a criminal, especially a burglar or a mugger, will be carrying a firearm.

If more people were allowed to have guns it would simply become easier for criminals to get their hands on them, thus *increasing* the likelihood of a burglar or mugger being armed with a gun, especially since they would then have the attitude of "if I'm going to rob someone or burgle their house and the householder is likely to be armed, I'm going to take along some protection for myself and if I'm disturbed, instead of running off, I'm going to shoot them before they shoot me".

This is not an ideal situation.

[Sarge]

Graham, excluding law enforcement; however, there is no doubt that many of our law enforcement are too criminals. Our cultures are very different but gun control would never work here. There is so much illegal arms deals going on that our criminal elements will always be able to get their hands on them. We who are law abiding citizens would not go so far as to obtain illegal firearms, at least most of us. Today in the U.S., the majority of criminals carry firearms. And since we could never really protect ourselves without them, well, I will take my chances of seeing who gets the first bullet. This is great stuff, isn't it?

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Sarge

Graham, excluding law enforcement;

Exactly

however, there is no doubt that many of our law enforcement are too criminals.

I don't doubt it. There again, there is no doubt there are some bad apples in our barrel too

Our cultures are very different but gun control would never work here.

Probably not, now.

My hope is, however, that we can avoid the same thing happening in this country. Allowing people in the UK to have guns for "self defence" will IMO only make the problem worse, not better.

[Sarge]

One place you cannot take a gun with you is to a football game, US football that is. When you get to the gate of the football stadium, you are searched from top to bottom. No carryins allowed, meaning no bags, backpacks, etc.. If your a woman you can carry a purse but that is searched too. this is good though, but isn't it ashame we must go through this, it's all due to 911, the day the world changed. in most office buildings you have to go through medal detectors to assure you have no weapons. I too hope the UK can avoid much of this. US citizens have the right to bear arms in our Bill of Rights, it would take an amendment to change that. I think we need to make it tougher to buy firearms but as long as we have lobbiest in Washington for them, it's unlikely to happen.

[Xaccers]

I think you said it best by pointing out that in the US most criminals have guns, and with guns being legal in the US, the oppertunities to get hold of them illegally are greatly increased.
Over here, it's not that easy to get guns, consiquently, most criminals (the sort who break into your home to nick your VCR and telly to sell for drugs) don't carry guns. They don't need too.
Homeowners aren't likely to be armed, so there is no need for a criminal to be armed. The most they're likely to come across is someone wielding an umbrella or golf club, and most criminals will flee rather than hang around to fight.
In countries where gun ownership is high, most criminals carry a gun for self protection because they know if they get caught in someone's home, they're likely to be facing a gun themselves, so better to shoot the homeowner than be shot (from the criminal's point of view).
You carry a gun when out and about in tow right?
For protection against mugging.
Presumably you believe if you are mugged it would be by someone who is also armed with a gun, otherwise something like a taser could do the job, or pepper spray.
That demonstrates my point perfectly. The criminal has easy access to a firearm and so uses it in mugging you because he knows that you too might be carrying a gun, otherwise a much cheaper carving knife would do the job.

[me283]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

I think you said it best by pointing out that in the US most criminals have guns, and with guns being legal in the US, the oppertunities to get hold of them illegally are greatly increased.
Over here, it's not that easy to get guns, consiquently, most criminals (the sort who break into your home to nick your VCR and telly to sell for drugs) don't carry guns. They don't need too.
Homeowners aren't likely to be armed, so there is no need for a criminal to be armed. The most they're likely to come across is someone wielding an umbrella or golf club, and most criminals will flee rather than hang around to fight.
In countries where gun ownership is high, most criminals carry a gun for self protection because they know if they get caught in someone's home, they're likely to be facing a gun themselves, so better to shoot the homeowner than be shot (from the criminal's point of view).
You carry a gun when out and about in tow right?
For protection against mugging.
Presumably you believe if you are mugged it would be by someone who is also armed with a gun, otherwise something like a taser could do the job, or pepper spray.
That demonstrates my point perfectly. The criminal has easy access to a firearm and so uses it in mugging you because he knows that you too might be carrying a gun, otherwise a much cheaper carving knife would do the job.

Purely out of interest, does anyone have any stats for burglaries in the USA, in states where guns are legalised? And also any stats for shootings during burglaries?

It would be interesting to see if burglaries were at a higher or lower rate than in the UK. Purely our of interest, you understand.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by me283

Purely out of interest, does anyone have any stats for burglaries in the USA, in states where guns are legalised? And also any stats for shootings during burglaries?

It would be interesting to see if burglaries were at a higher or lower rate than in the UK. Purely our of interest, you understand.

I used to have some, will have to do another search on google.
It was on a site which also showed that in states with the death penalty there was also more murder than states without it

[SlackDad]

I think something that has been missing from this discussion is the question of why anyone would want to, or feel the need to, carry a gun for self defence in the first place. What does this say about the society we are living in?

I have already suggested in a previous thread that we appear to live in a culture based on fear: fear of terrorist attacks, fear of crime, fear of bird flu, and on and on. It's increasingly difficult to separate the reality from the fiction. As I think somebody else suggested, 'fear sells'. And when scared the natural reaction is to protect yourself and your family in the best way possible. For some, this inevitably means a gun.

I therefore think that the government should take a serious look at the effect its actions and policies are having. For instance continuously 'attacking' civil liberties in an attempt to make us all 'feel' safer, is conversely having the result of making us more scared (with very little substance to the claims). Another example: How much crime does the government's 'war' on drugs actually create? Remember those who make policy are rarely those that it has a direct impact on. These are just two examples.

Although I don't fully accept the argument that a burglar who thinks he may be confronted with a gun will always think twice, if this is true, this will only have the effect of transferring crime from one area to another, rather than reducing it. So more than likely increasing car thefts, etc.

Instead of turning into Rambo I'd rather take a hard look at the society I live and participate in and ask, why do people feel the need to carry a gun, and if so why is it all going so wrong?

[punky]

I like the way that if you don't want to be raped, murdered, beaten up, then you are derided as being 'afraid of crime'. I don't want to be run over by a bus either, but I am not afraid of it. You take precautions when crossing the road, so you take precautions against crime. All the security in the world won't keep people out - and even then, you have to leave the house sometime. People feel the need to carry arms to level the playing field. ATM its weighted too far towards the criminal. The new intrepretation has helped address this imbalance, but not far enough.

Crime has got worse. Not necessarily the frequency, but certainly the degree. Violence is more commonplace.

[SlackDad]

Originally Posted by punky

People feel the need to carry arms to level the playing field.

And this is the best approach? Better than tackling the problems that facilitate that environment in the first place.

The day I feel so concerned that I have to carry a gun is the day I look for another country to live in. Sad but true.

[me283]

Originally Posted by SlackDad

I think something that has been missing from this discussion is the question of why anyone would want to, or feel the need to, carry a gun for self defence in the first place. What does this say about the society we are living in?

What it says is that soiety is becoming a more dangerous place IMO. It also says that many people have no faith in the police to handle incidents where the victim is at risk, nor with the courts to deal with criminals.

[punky]

Originally Posted by SlackDad

And this is the best approach? Better than tackling the problems that facilitate that environment in the first place.

The day I feel so concerned that I have to carry a gun is the day I look for another country to live in. Sad but true.

I never said you can't. All I am saying is in the intrim, people should have the right to match the threat they face.

[me283]

I remember hearing an interesting anecdote, the truth of which I am uncertain.

A man was burgled, and caught the intruder. He called the Police and asked them to come out. "Sorry" said the police officer, "we're too busy at the moment, but we will be out in a couple of hours". "That's OK" said the man, "I've shot him anyway". Within minutes there were swarms of police on the scene, some armed. They found the man, with the captured intruder, who hadn't been shot. "I thought you said you'd shot him?" said an angry policeman. "I thought you said you were too busy?" said an amused man...

[SlackDad]

Originally Posted by me283

What it says is that soiety is becoming a more dangerous place IMO. It also says that many people have no faith in the police to handle incidents where the victim is at risk, nor with the courts to deal with criminals.

And the solution? Turn into Rambo?