Parliament to be recalled re: Taliban in Afghanistan

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

You really do just get lower and lower.

I've not put anyone through anything, what suffering have you been causing ?

Personally none.

However they will rationally fail to see the distinction between the state and the civilians. Indeed we elect Governments (successive governments across the US/UK and others) who carry out these wars. I think we use the term “collateral damage”.

In reality we put ourselves in the crosshairs. In twenty years we can do it all over again, and the military industrial complex can trouser hundreds of billions of dollars more while we achieve nothing.

We could have voted against Governments pursuing these policies but time and again endorsed them. Would we hold much sympathy for people who voted for Saddam Hussein? Why should they feel any differently towards us?

I think you get more unhinged every day.

We dont elect governments to carry out wars.
Nor do we vote against them if we happen to disagree with certain policies.

You know very well its nothing like as simple as that.
Do you agree with every single policy of who you voted for, I most certainly dont.

And now you are comparing Saddam Hussein to our current (or previous) leaders ?

Are you a terrorist recuriter ? becasue you are starting to sound like one.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

I think you get more unhinged every day.

We dont elect governments to carry out wars.
Nor do we vote against them if we happen to disagree with certain policies.

You know very well its nothing like as simple as that.
Do you agree with every single policy of who you voted for, I most certainly dont.

And now you are comparing Saddam Hussein to our current (or previous) leaders ?

Are you a terrorist recuriter ? becasue you are starting to sound like one.

I’m not sure why you are misrepresenting what I’m saying.

That’s what they will be saying. I’m not quite sure why that’s not clear. Terrorist recruitment will be through the roof because from their perspective my points as made here are absolutely compelling.

“Ah but Blair had the minimum wage” isn’t really going to calm down frothing at the mouth Jihadis who will view anything American or British as legitimate targets, any more than we would accept that Saddam Hussein brought stability and security to large swathes of Iraq.

We carve our own comforting narratives of the white man bringing fairness, justice and equality to the world but there will absolutely be nomadkings of Afghanistan, typing away on forums completely ambivalent to that perspective. If we disagreed with it so much why didn’t we fight against the system propagating these wars? It only takes a handful to be radicalised with minimal skills and weapons to carry out a terrorist attack and within these refugees there will absolutely be people willing to commit it.

[nomadking]

9/11 and other attacks originating in Afghanistan, occurred BEFORE the "West" went into the country.

He has a good point:

Originally Posted by Andrew Neil @afneil

Biden’s national security adviser reveals the President has not spoken to any world leader about Afghanistan this week. Quite incredible. So much for consulting and informing allies who’ve also been in Afghanistan for two decades. And you thought Trump didn’t care about allies …

Originally Posted by jfman

I’m not sure why you are misrepresenting what I’m saying.

What exactly am I "misrepresenting"

And let's be honest it will only be a matter of time before terrorist incident rise

Originally Posted by jfman

Why should our civilians be exempted from suffering and pain given what we’ve put their country through.

You clearly seem to think we should endure "suffering and pain" becasue of what "we've" supposedly done.

If thats not saying its fine for terrorists to attack us because they may have suffered in their country at some point, then by all means please clarify what exactly you do mean.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

9/11 and other attacks originating in Afghanistan, occurred BEFORE the "West" went into the country.

And the USA backed the Taliban first time round. The cycle is endless and there is no real incentive on their part to stop it. Generations in Afghanistan have grown up knowing nothing but being a chess piece in American wars even when 15 Saudi Arabians participated in the 9/11 attacks.

The average Afghan endorsed that no more, and arguably less, than your average US/UK national endorsed our involvement in Afghanistan. But many paid a heavy price and continue to do so.

---------- Post added at 22:10 ---------- Previous post was at 22:08 ----------

Originally Posted by Paul

What exactly am I "misrepresenting"

You clearly seem to think we should endure "suffering and pain" becasue of what "we've" supposedly done.

If thats not saying its fine for terrorists to attack us because they may have suffered in their country at some point, then by all means please clarify what exactly you do mean.

I phrased that as a question to illustrate their perspective. There will absolutely be people in Afghanistan and elsewhere taking the position “its fine for terrorists to attack us because they may have suffered in their country at some point”.

I said “we’ve” to mean the UK/USA state apparatus - it’s not unique by any means for me to have done so here. The Brexit threads “we” is frequently used to donate “our side” even though we (you and I) have no active participation in the process.

Believing a terrorist incident absolutely inevitable is different from wanting one or supporting one. It’s going to be impossible for all western governments to adequately vet the refugees from this crisis. State support and integration will likely be minimal. Plus there’s the ability to radicalise homegrown terrorists.

Originally Posted by jfman

I phrased that as a question to illustrate their perspective.

You didnt phrase it as a question at all, there is no ?
You phrased it as a statement, which is exactly how I interpreted it.

Originally Posted by jfman

And the USA backed the Taliban first time round. The cycle is endless and there is no real incentive on their part to stop it. Generations in Afghanistan have grown up knowing nothing but being a chess piece in American wars even when 15 Saudi Arabians participated in the 9/11 attacks.

The average Afghan endorsed that no more, and arguably less, than your average US/UK national endorsed our involvement in Afghanistan. But many paid a heavy price and continue to do so.

Incorrect - the US, and the UK for that matter, trained and equipped certain of the tribal leaders in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. These became known as the Mujahideen, who overran the Soviet puppet government shortly after the withdrawal of the Red Army, almost as quickly as the Taliban overran Kabul this week.

The 1990s Taliban (some of them, at least) were the grandsons of the Mujahideen and they certainly benefited from the training and equipment left in the country by the SAS and others. They did not, and do not, however, share the ideology of the Mujahideen, who were moderate pussycats by comparison. The Mujahideen were classic tribal leaders motivated by loyalty to an idea of Afghanistan where that tribal system could continue to thrive without outside interference. The Taliban, particularly the original 1990s version of them, were motivated by a desire to create a primitive, austere version of Islam in the country and they weren’t at all fussy about giving succour to those who fancied taking that Islamic purity and sticking it to the West. It remains to be seen how much of that will reassert itself once the 2020s Taliban have their feet under the table. I suspect slightly more than they’ve indicated.

The Taliban overthrew the system established by the Mujahideen in 1996. It helps nobody to make historically incorrect statements about the USA backing the Taliban. It’s also pointless to do so. If you want to take a pop at the Americans all you have to do is point at Afghanistan this week, where an epoch-defining catastrophe is unfolding as we speak, entirely due to a forseeable, preventable failure of US foreign policy.

[jfman]

I genuinely can’t think off hand of a sentence starting with “why” that isn’t a question or seeking to establish a reason.

And having taken the view that I consider a related terrorist incident inevitable (not an unreasonable position to be fair) I can’t think of a reason that a rational Afghan (or general Islamic fundamentalist) who wants retribution for perceived injustice would create a distinction between civilians and military targets. Maybe they’re more principled than I give them credit for.

I certainly don’t intend anyone to read more into my previous statements than the above.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Chris

These became known as the Mujahideen, who overran the Soviet puppet government shortly after the withdrawal of the Red Army, almost as quickly as the Taliban overran Kabul this week.

I posted part of a Sky News article earlier which stated the time frames of over-running the incumbent regimes was vastly different.

At least the then Soviet-backed government in the Afghan capital clung to power for three years following the Russian withdrawal.

The Western-supported administration of Ashraf Ghani barely lasted three hours once the Taliban reached the gates of Kabul, with the president and his closest aides fleeing to exile without putting up any kind of resistance.

https://news.sky.com/story/events-in...ussia-12383629

[nomadking]

Tribal conflicts have been there for centuries, all that changes are the names of the groups.
Link

Some of the reforms that were put in place, such as the abolition of the traditional burqa for women and the opening of several co-educational schools, quickly alienated many tribal and religious leaders, and this led to the Afghan Civil War (1928–1929).

The fundamental problem is that there is no leader in Afghanistan that has the sense of pride and status to be prepared to stand up for the people of the country. The leaders knew they could simply flee the country and live the high-life wherever they wanted to.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by nomadking

The fundamental problem is that there is no leader in Afghanistan that has the sense of pride and status to be prepared to stand up for the people of the country. The leaders knew they could simply flee the country and live the high-life wherever they wanted to.

In countries like this, leaders are probably also well aware that if they upset the 'wrong crowd' with some strong decisions, they're only a 7.62 round or chunk of C4 away from not being a Leader any more

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Carth

In countries like this, leaders are probably also well aware that if they upset the 'wrong crowd' with some strong decisions, they're only a 7.62 round or chunk of C4 away from not being a Leader any more

And yet there are still leaders and countries around the World who DO stand to the Islamists.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Mick

He has a good point:

How's that for a FU, all the blood and money spent and he doesn't even think it appropriate to talk to the people who honoured the alliance with blood, how disrespectful considering it was his country attacked and we all stepped up even though technically iirc the one attacked all attacked rule didn't apply

Originally Posted by jfman

And the USA backed the Taliban first time round. The cycle is endless and there is no real incentive on their part to stop it. Generations in Afghanistan have grown up knowing nothing but being a chess piece in American wars even when 15 Saudi Arabians participated in the 9/11 attacks.

The average Afghan endorsed that no more, and arguably less, than your average US/UK national endorsed our involvement in Afghanistan. But many paid a heavy price and continue to do so.

The cycle really is endless Britain fought three wars there before when Afghanistan was really being used as a chess piece in the great game. Worth rembering Britain won twice there to and one of the wins could be argued won a settlement everyone benefitted from, if only we learnt from history and repeated it!!