Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[madslug]

Originally Posted by Tarquin L-Smythe

Talk Talk forum here
http://www.talktalkmembers.com/forum...?t=740&page=18

An interesting forum. Read post from matt and stephen for a TT 'official' line. In particular matt's post of 5th March covering the OIX use of competitor URLs makes very disturbing reading. Targeting competitor visitors like this is legal?

Lets say mr tasty the bakers wants to launch an advertising campaign through WebWise. They want to advertise their new vanilla slice to people searching for cream cakes but not pastry products.

They build an advertising profile saying something along the lines of

1. looking for bakers, bakery, cakes, cream pie, eclair
2. not looking at pasties, pies, sausage rolls
3. are visiting websites such as www.cakesrus.com, www.creamygoodness.com or www.massiveeclairs.com
4. are not visiting websites such as www.savourydelights.com, www.meatpiesrus.com, www.porkpies4u.com , www.pastiestoyourdoor.com
5. In a two hour period

(I apologise if any of those sites exist by the way, I made them all up).

Removing cookies is an interesting idea - makes it harder to detect illegal copying of web sites.

If only BT would consider the opt-in model too. Maybe they are and that explains the delay.

[Florence]

Originally Posted by Digbert

BE's call centre is in Bulgaria.

And just to keep on topic I like the quote from the ACLU:

"DPI allows ISPs to have access to all of your searches, friends and family, anything you read and email, any sites you visit and any comments you post. DPI is a virtual strip search for you and your computer."
http://www.aclu.org/privacy/internet...s20080721.html

That is one of the best ways to describe DPI I wonder how Microsofts latest news of their future will fit in with DPI or more what more will it lay bare for DPI to strip off the bone..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7540282.stm

IT technology is always changing yet looking at phorm it hasn't changed much it still sticks to root so still rootkit. still intercepts so not moved on much from early 2000. Also was illegal then and still illegal.

How will it handle a total change of direction by Microsoft...

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by feesch

Agreed! DO I agree with Police having access to little black boxes at ISP level, What about your boss monitoring what goes on via your exchange server? So you look at something online, against company rules, and you get sacked. How would that stand in court? That is generally the thrust of that argument.

I guess the anology would be better would be what right does WH Smith have to have a say in how to advertise in magazines on their shelves, and by that I mean they are far removed from the media publisher. Reality is WHS are keen to justify effects of circulation versus advertising having an impact on the audience alongside the publisher. To that level media IS about reaching the right audience, and if they could work out that one store sells one type of magazine based on their demographics aginst another store, then their is a connection between the seller and the media publisher, and what magazines to stock.

Now appreciate the web is a different gambit, but to some degree they are operating as a conduit. I think that is how the ISPs see themelsves in relation to the website owners. They are not mutually exclusive.

I am answering your question to show their side, as opposed to endorsing methods, here.

Well Well so you are the front line of the Phorm PR Campaign now eh? Just been catching up on your posts and whereas your prose are nicely gilded you don't appear to have listened to a word anyone has said or even taken into consideration the issues being raised.

Firstly Phorm is illegal; there are no ifs or buts it is illegal under common/civil law and it is illegal under criminal law and no amount of pretty words is going to change that.

As for your analogy above about a company reading emails that come in on their Exchange Server, you need to research this a little more because yes it is criminally illegal and yes there has been case law which found parties guilty and issued a criminal sentence as a result (See Demon Internet CEO case) and the decision -was- upheld on appeal AND the case was prosecuted as a violation of RIPA.

You ask Peter where he was during the parliamentary debate on this issue, well surely if you had the all singing all dancing tracking world that you envision you would already know that. I was in the House of Lords discussing these issues with the Earl of Northesk and in communications with Baroness Miller whim both work in one of the Houses of Parliament.

I suggest you make sure you get your Cheque and it clears from Phorm before typing more as their funds are dwindling and I hate for you not to be able to cover your mortgage should the cheque bounce.

You seem to think this is a guaranteed scenario and that Phorm -will- win; I beg to differ. They have currently lost the battle in the US, lost the battle in Canada, lost the battle with the European Commission and really annoyed the South Koreans. They will lose the battle here in the UK too (in fact I would say they already have looking at their share price and the complete lack of confidence in their stock.)

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 13:51 ---------- Previous post was at 13:45 ----------

Originally Posted by feesch

Last time I tried to get sky (couple of years back), and knowing from others who subscibe to service, it 'was' a requirement. Would need to check if has subsequently changed then. Either way, that was their reason and intention. Why else would there there be a need to faciliaite a two-way connection to a satellite box? Curious to know if they have ditched this or have some technological improvement to facilitate this another way, as they would need to 'see' what the viewer is doing for business justification surely?

Actually I will support you on this, Sky T&C state that for the first 12 months you must have a telephone line plugged in to your box. However, the box still works without the phone line plugged into it and after 12 months there is no longer any requirement under T&C. Furthermore, Sky to my knowledge have made very very little attempt to enforce their T&C on this point.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 14:02 ---------- Previous post was at 13:51 ----------

Originally Posted by phormwatch

OK, so I've had no offers to distribute Phorm Flyers on the Tube. I live 2 hours from London, so it would be a right pain for me to do it.

If no one is willing to take this up, then we should concentrate on other ways of getting the word out. Talking amongst ourselves on CableForum will do little to further the campaign unless what we talk about translates into action.

Any concrete ideas, suggestions?

Portly Giraffe emailed me about this I believe he has something planned.

Alexander hanff

[phormwatch]

I've just started a Wikispace - primarily for quotations related to dpi, but also as a collaborative information tool.

It can be found here:

http://nodpi.wikispaces.com/

I've sent out a few invites, but not many, since I don't have many email addresses.

If you would like to become an editing member, send me a PM, and a reference from someone who is already a member.

---------- Post added at 14:07 ---------- Previous post was at 14:03 ----------

Originally Posted by Digbert

BE's call centre is in Bulgaria.

And just to keep on topic I like the quote from the ACLU:

"DPI allows ISPs to have access to all of your searches, friends and family, anything you read and email, any sites you visit and any comments you post. DPI is a virtual strip search for you and your computer."
http://www.aclu.org/privacy/internet...s20080721.html

Added to the wiki quotes page!

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by Tharrick

I think my contract expires at the end of the month - I simply plan not to renew

Bad plan, you should put it in writing that you do not wish to renew or they will automatically renew it for you and try to sting you if you cancel after the effect.

Alexander Hanff

[phormwatch]

Welcome back, Alex! Exams over? How did they go?

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by phormwatch

Welcome back, Alex! Exams over? How did they go?

No exam was cancelled last week it is this Thursday now. But as I promised I have been keeping up with the news and this thread so I just wanted to respond to the new Phorm PR front line man on the points he poorly argued.

Alexander Hanff

[Florence]

El reg has hit the good one again

Campaigners celebrate Comcastration http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08...cast_reaction/

Well we only need to follow either with our government leading or dragged behind with wrist slapped for failure..

[BetBlowWhistler]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

Actually I will support you on this, Sky T&C state that for the first 12 months you must have a telephone line plugged in to your box. However, the box still works without the phone line plugged into it and after 12 months there is no longer any requirement under T&C. Furthermore, Sky to my knowledge have made very very little attempt to enforce their T&C on this point.

Alexander Hanff

I can back this up as I had this very issue when I upgrade from Sky to Sky+ (as a result of moving house too).

Initially we had no way of connecting the box to the master socket and getting a slave terminal installed involved listed buildings permission...and so it dragged on for several months. They _were_ persistant, but I was patient and after 12 months they stopped asking

After reading the PR man's postings I have come to the conclusion that Ad people talk a different language completely to the one I am familiar with. I believe it has to do with the focus of your intent.

As a techie, my language is usually straightfoward and (hopefully) succinct which reflects my intentions.

My observations of ad-people-speak is that their language is evasive, manipulative and wordy to the point of obfuscation, which I believe is a measure of _their_ intentions.

[Wildie]

forget BE here they keep telling me they can only offer 1.5mbit d/l I question that seeing I am on 8mbit which actually gives me 7.6mbit and has done for many years, they said it is the info they got from you know who.

[phormwatch]

I hope you all will help contribute to the nodpi wiki page. http://nodpi.wikispaces.com/

Please send in any quotes to my phormwatch address or edit the pages yourselves.

You can add anything you want, not just quotes.

[Deko]

@ Mr Hannff
PIA still MIA !!! Any news on this ?

Any news on the case file handed into the police ?

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by Deko

@ Mr Hannff
PIA still MIA !!! Any news on this ?

Any news on the case file handed into the police ?

Simon is out of the country again for the rest of the month. Still nothing from the police I will be contacting them on Friday.

Alexander Hanff

[Tharrick]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

Bad plan, you should put it in writing that you do not wish to renew or they will automatically renew it for you and try to sting you if you cancel after the effect.

Alexander Hanff

Nah, I managed to get hold of them today and cancelled. Contract expires on the 9th of September, and they won't be renewing it.

[Privacy_Matters]

Originally Posted by philj

Response from Virgin Media regarding email telling them I was posting letter (Data Protection Act) and my disgust at any implementation of Phorm or anything like it

Thank you for your e-mail dated 2 August 2008 concerning Virgin Media using PHORM.

I am sorry that you feel this way. Phorm Is there to safegaurd our customers not to transfer information about our users. Webwise checks these sites against a list of fraudulent sites and warns customers if they're heading to one. They're given the option to continue to that site, so Webwise won't restrict their online experience in any way, but at least they'll be able to decide for themselves, and avoid the chance of this form of identity theft. In this way Webwise helps to secure our customers' privacy.

Another great thing about Webwise is that it can help reduce irrelevant advertising. As customers browse web pages, Webwise looks at things like search terms, and learns what topics might be of interest. This is done without collecting any personal information, so once again their privacy is protected. These topics are then used to help filter out adverts that might be irrelevant - instead they'll simply see an advert that will match a topic they're are more interested in.

Webwise doesn't capture or store any customer's personal details, only anonymous information about advertising categories that may be of interest to them. Webwise places a common cookie in web browsers - a small computer code with a unique, randomly generated number on it. With this cookie, Webwise can deliver warnings of potentially dangerous websites and replace untargeted ads with more relevant ones. This cookie can be deleted at any time.

Virgin Media strives to provide excellent service to all its loyal customers. I am sorry for any inconvenience. If you have further queries regarding this matter or any other issue, please use the link provided below:

I put this to VM on the Feedback NG:

>So, hows about some clarification - are you going to accuse your Staff of
>incompetently drafting an incorrect mail, or would you care to confirm you
>have implemented Phorm?

Nothing has been implemented on the network. I'll feed back the
wording to the customer care team - it could have been better.




<Name Removed>

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<Name Removed>
Senior Product Manager
Product Management, Virgin Media

This is as good as it gets from VM