Post-Brexit Thread

[Osem]

Well I must say all this positive talk of trade deals with Canada, China, Australia, New Zealand etc. isn't at all what that tragic group the Remainers predicted in the Morrissey-style, doom laden, dirge they subjected us to for weeks leading up to the referendum. Nope, there's precious little evidence of fences going up or little Englanders cutting us off from anyone, except maybe the faceless suits in Brussels whose head in the sand egotism has driven the EU to the edge of the precipice...

[denphone]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Millions of chavs or working class people doing their best guess it depends what media you observe as someone on a former council estate I don't see chavs I see my neighbours and friends trying to do the best they can and still maintaining a sense of community. Another aspect of the modern UK the eu referendum bought into focus was the level of self hate a sizable majority have regarding this country and some of it's citizens May is going to need to work really hard to resolve that problem.

The trouble with some in this country Rizzy is the constant stereotyping of certain groups but then again what else can you expect from some who permanently seem to have their prejudiced blinkers on.

[Ignitionnet]

It's a tad early for 'I told you so', and a long way from being constructive. I could happily pile in with various links, citations, etc, but I think the forum as a whole gratefully left recrimination over the referendum behind and is looking towards the future now.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

That would be illegal.

Only because the EU say it is ,they could just as easily say that all EU rights for citizens end when A50 is triggered ,all it takes is political will .The only reason we have to wait the 2 years is because that was the decision made when A50 was formulated,they could have just as easily ended EU citizen rights when A50 is triggered ,it hasn't been tried yet and will no doubt be subject to change when we have finished exiting.

[nomadking]

University pf Salford study from 2013.

The University of Salford acknowledges the financial support of the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust.

That group well-known for being right wing.

We estimate that as of 2012 there are at least 197,705 migrant Roma living in the UK. Based on the responses from key informants this is considered a conservative estimate of the population. It is likely that this population will continue to increase.

They aren't the sort who live in caravans or even bungalows, so where are they all living?

Channel 4.

In the Page Hall area of Sheffield, Gulnaz Hussain, who runs an advice centre for immigrants, says the number of Roma families has rocketed from just one or two in 2004 to several hundred today.

Of the 3,000 Czech Roma living in Peterborough, 70 to 80 per cent are estimated by officials to be economically inactive and therefore not contributing to the benefit system through taxes.

Originally Posted by nomadking

A gave 2 real examples. The family of 24 was just some of 6,000 of that grouping living in just one UK town. Add in others from that grouping from other countries/living in other towns/cities and the same with other groups, and you get a huge number, all getting housing and benefits etc. Why should other EU countries be allowed to export their dross? The fact we have our own dross doesn't make any difference. When a British ex-pat has gone over to Spain or wherever, they usually take their savings with them thereby bringing NEW additional money to that country.

Have to agree ,when was the last time we heard of someone leaving the UK to claim benefits in Boznia .Whichever way you look at it there is a problem of migrants getting benefits in this country without ever contributing .The number doesn't matter ,it could be 2,000 or 200,000 annually it is wrong and needs to stop .Our own 'lazy' non workers are getting hammered from every angle by the benefits system so why should migrants be any different

[Osem]

These people are here in large numbers and more are on their way. Of course those who can't or don't want to see beyond the ends of their noses won't acknowledge the massive problem which is being exacerbated and isn't going away. Maybe it hasn't reached their doorsteps yet... Our society is not so gradually being irreversibly changed and undermined by a huge influx of people which shows no signs of even slowing down let alone stopping.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by martyh

Only because the EU say it is ,they could just as easily say that all EU rights for citizens end when A50 is triggered ,all it takes is political will .The only reason we have to wait the 2 years is because that was the decision made when A50 was formulated,they could have just as easily ended EU citizen rights when A50 is triggered ,it hasn't been tried yet and will no doubt be subject to change when we have finished exiting.

The Treaty of Lisbon that we agreed to says it's illegal, not the EU.

We probably don't want to get things off on that kind of foot. A smooth, amicable break-up would be best.

Going back on treaties doesn't inspire confidence in others that we're a reliable partner.

---------- Post added at 20:42 ---------- Previous post was at 20:39 ----------

Originally Posted by nomadking

University pf Salford study from 2013.
That group well-known for being right wing.
They aren't the sort who live in caravans or even bungalows, so where are they all living?

Channel 4.

I know, let's pick on one specific group of EU migrants and tar all of them with that same brush. Let's just stop taking in migrants of any description. Some of them are bound to be 'dross'.

---------- Post added at 20:45 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Have to agree ,when was the last time we heard of someone leaving the UK to claim benefits in Boznia .Whichever way you look at it there is a problem of migrants getting benefits in this country without ever contributing .The number doesn't matter ,it could be 2,000 or 200,000 annually it is wrong and needs to stop .Our own 'lazy' non workers are getting hammered from every angle by the benefits system so why should migrants be any different

Well, yes. Our welfare system is largely non-contributory. Change the system the problem goes away. Not sure about migrants being any different - they are subject to the same or stricter welfare rules than natives.

On the whole EU migrants take less out-of-work welfare than natives and more in-work welfare due to working for lower pay, however we had agreement to refuse in-work welfare to EU migrants for a time. That agreement expired with the referendum result.

As with so many other things the root of this issue is our own system. I would be a huge advocate of a more contributory welfare system, it would solve many problems, but rather than grasp that nettle it's been easier to blame migrants.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I know, let's pick on one specific group of EU migrants and tar all of them with that same brush. Let's just stop taking in migrants of any description. Some of them are bound to be 'dross'.

---------- Post added at 20:45 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------
Well, yes. Our welfare system is largely non-contributory. Change the system the problem goes away. Not sure about migrants being any different - they are subject to the same or stricter welfare rules than natives.

On the whole EU migrants take less out-of-work welfare than natives and more in-work welfare due to working for lower pay, however we had agreement to refuse in-work welfare to EU migrants for a time. That agreement expired with the referendum result.

As with so many other things the root of this issue is our own system. I would be a huge advocate of a more contributory welfare system, it would solve many problems, but rather than grasp that nettle it's been easier to blame migrants.

I didn't pick on one group or another. It's just there was a TV prog where a couple came over with 22 children and grandchildren. The programme also said there were 6,000 other Czech Roma in Rotherham. I was giving it as a TRUE AND REAL example. They were all getting housed and claiming benefits.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

The Treaty of Lisbon that we agreed to says it's illegal, not the EU.

We probably don't want to get things off on that kind of foot. A smooth, amicable break-up would be best.

Going back on treaties doesn't inspire confidence in others that we're a reliable partner.[COLOR="Silver"]
.

A mutual agreement to set side the rules could be achieved with enough political will ,it would expedite our exit which would benefit all parties and it would stop any possibility of a mass influx of migrants.

As with so many other things the root of this issue is our own system. I would be a huge advocate of a more contributory welfare system, it would solve many problems, but rather than grasp that nettle it's been easier to blame migrants.

Absolutely agree .

[Osem]

I understand there is an EU mechanism for an emergency brake on migration and, if so, maybe we should trigger it.

Whilst there are plenty of things wrong with our internal systems and procedures, I don't see anything wrong with blaming those who chose to come here deliberately to exploit them, whether that be benefit and housing claimants, health tourists or indeed people who come and immediately set about having children despite having no job and no prospects. Why would anyone do that except for triggering the extra benefits and entitlements (e.g.g housing) which some with children? The system of free movement coupled with our benefit system exacerbates this problem and no matter what we do, unless we embark on the sort of tough reforms of our welfare, legal, health services many of us wouldn't wish to see, we are going to be unable to prevent large scale abuse of the system be people who've never contributed a thing and whose only motivation is to get something for nothing. Even then, with fake documents easy to obtain, who's going to be able to check entitlement with any degree of certainty?

---------- Post added at 07:53 ---------- Previous post was at 07:50 ----------

Originally Posted by nomadking

I didn't pick on one group or another. It's just there was a TV prog where a couple came over with 22 children and grandchildren. The programme also said there were 6,000 other Czech Roma in Rotherham. I was giving it as a TRUE AND REAL example. They were all getting housed and claiming benefits.

Correct and it's happening all over the place.

[JoelTheSuperior]

I think it's worth mentioning that even outside of the EU there's a good chance we'll still have to retain freedom of movement if we want a decent trade deal with the EEA. Hell, there's talk of a new agreement even possibly requiring joining the Schengen (which I can understand people have concerns about, especially since 'islands are different').

The potential of trade deals with the USA, Canada, Australia do seem promising but keep in mind that it's very unlikely that they would work in our favour. The fact is that we can't start negotiations (though we can have informal talks) until we have officially left the EU, and the UK, being in a vulnerable position post-Brexit, is almost certainly going to be offered the short end of the stick.

It's also worth considering that these deals could take a long time to hammer out, during which time we would have to pay tariffs on trade with these countries, though I suspect less time than some have made out. Whilst it's true that such deals have taken 7 to 10 years for other countries to negotiate, coming out of the EU, assuming we keep the majority of EU legislation we should be *mostly* compatible with similar agreements to what we already have via the EU.

If you were concerned about TTIP especially this should concern you, as the US are likely to offer our government something very similar or potentially even more draconian, especially since the Conservatives apparently had no issue with it when the EU were considering it, despite the objections of other EU member states.

Even so, the simple fact is that our trade with these countries does not make up anywhere near what our trade with the EU has - it's a tiny fraction by comparison and it's unlikely that it could ever replace it simply due to the distances and costs involved.

Some people on other forums have brought up the possibility of freedom of movement within the commonwealth (so say, with the UK, Canada and Australia) and I genuinely could see this being very appealing to the British public, especially as I imagine British people feel more of a connection with people from these countries than they do with say, Europe. Unfortunately I do think it's unlikely that such a deal could happen, especially since it'd probably cause a lot of younger and more qualified Brits to jump ship.

Personally, this has given me a nice kick to get off my arse and start considering what my other options elsewhere in the world may be.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by martyh

A mutual agreement to set side the rules could be achieved with enough political will ,it would expedite our exit which would benefit all parties and it would stop any possibility of a mass influx of migrants.



Absolutely agree .

Is there not a way freedom of movement could be slowed while negotiations take place? We're leaving anyway and I am sure the EU won't want to swamp us with migrants.

[Dave42]

Theresa May Will Not Start Brexit This Year
The High Court is told the Prime Minister does not intend to trigger Article 50 this year, as lawyers mount a Brexit challenge.

http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-ma...snt-sf-twitter

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Dave42

Theresa May Will Not Start Brexit This Year
The High Court is told the Prime Minister does not intend to trigger Article 50 this year, as lawyers mount a Brexit challenge.

http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-ma...snt-sf-twitter

Why can't they just accept the democratic will of the people and get on with it?