Brexit

[jfman]

Originally Posted by denphone

A second referendum will solve nothing...

It solves everything. The problem isn’t a divided country, it’s a Government and Parliament trying to avoid blame.

Leave wins 2nd ref and all the criticisms of the first are invalid. People, without doubt, would be making an informed choice. Unicorn Brexit doesn’t exist.

Remain wins and all this becomes a damp squib.

Remain wins - especially by a margin similar to leave’s win in 2016 - and our fractured society becomes worse and trust in our political system hits rock bottom. Do you seriously think that a simple remain win in another referendum would make all this just go away?

(Which of course is to accept your assumption that a new referendum would be “Deal or remain”, something everyone is being careful not to talk about right now.)

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

Remain wins - especially by a margin similar to leave’s win in 2016 - and our fractured society becomes worse and trust in our political system hits rock bottom. Do you seriously think that a simple remain win in another referendum would make all this just go away?

(Which of course is to accept your assumption that a new referendum would be “Deal or remain”, something everyone is being careful not to talk about right now.)

Our society has been fractured since the 80s. Nothing new there. However our Establishment doesn’t view that as a problem, Brexit on the other hand is.

In the words of the Chancellor the talk is of a “confirmatory referendum”, that necessitates endorsing the decision to leave.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by denphone

What second referendum? as there won't be one...

We were also leaving on 31/3 and not taking part in EU elections and Brexit meant Brexit, whatever that meant....

If the politicians can't decide, we have to. It'll be a while yet (slowly, slowly catchee monkey ) , but they'll have go back for another vote eventually. Politicians can then wash their hands if it. Hopefully this time people will know exactly what they're voting for. If they genuinely want to be worse off, fair enough.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mr K

We were also leaving on 31/3 and not taking part in EU elections and Brexit meant Brexit, whatever that meant....

If the politicians can't decide, we have to. It'll be a while yet (slowly, slowly catchee monkey ) , but they'll have go back for another vote eventually. Politicians can then wash their hands if it. Hopefully this time people will know exactly what they're voting for.

I’m convinced the politicians have decided already. This is all stage managed. Everyone saying just the right thing at the right time.

Originally Posted by jfman

Our society has been fractured since the 80s. Nothing new there. However our Establishment doesn’t view that as a problem, Brexit on the other hand is.

In the words of the Chancellor the talk is of a “confirmatory referendum”, that necessitates endorsing the decision to leave.

A confirmatory referendum could equally be used to endorse the manner in which we leave, while respecting the 2016 result by not opening an avenue to overturn it.

That aside, I note you sidestepped my question with an oblique swipe at Margaret Thatcher, which really is a tired old cliche even on Clydeside these days.

Why should a remain victory in a 2019 referendum settle the issue when a leave victory in 2016 did not - especially as the result of that referendum was never implemented?

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mr K

We were also leaving on 31/3 and not taking part in EU elections and Brexit meant Brexit, whatever that meant....

Blame the politicians for that scenario..

---------- Post added at 10:47 ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

If the politicians can't decide, we have to. It'll be a while yet (slowly, slowly catchee monkey ) , but they'll have go back for another vote eventually. Politicians can then wash their hands if it. Hopefully this time people will know exactly what they're voting for. If they genuinely want to be worse off, fair enough.

Sorry but it would be exactly the same as the first referendum with constant lies and obfuscation from both sides with copious amounts of emnity thrown in for good measure.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

A confirmatory referendum could equally be used to endorse the manner in which we leave, while respecting the 2016 result by not opening an avenue to overturn it.

That aside, I note you sidestepped my question with an oblique swipe at Margaret Thatcher, which really is a tired old cliche even on Clydeside these days.

Why should a remain victory in a 2019 referendum settle the issue when a leave victory in 2016 did not - especially as the result of that referendum was never implemented?

It’s not a sidestep of the question. Society is fractured. People in working class towns and villages have literally nothing in common with the London financial bubble.

For many they have literally no investment in the success, or otherwise, of the wider economy because they won’t (or at least believe they won’t) see it.

The referendum won’t solve people’s problems either way, but it’ll solve politicians problems.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by denphone

Blame the politicians for that scenario..

---------- Post added at 10:47 ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 ----------



Sorry but it would be exactly the same as the first referendum with constant lies and obfuscation from both sides with copious amounts of emnity thrown in for good measure.

Yes but folks are more clued up now. If they don't know the real pro/cons of Brexit, they must have been on the Space Station.... The question might not necessarily be the same, it might be on different types of Brexit, or confirming whatever parliament decides.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by jfman

People in working class towns and villages have literally nothing in common with the London financial bubble.

Nail on head as I see it

Maybe that would change though if half of the 'financial sector' down south suddenly uprooted and moved to Slovenia (with the aid of EU grants) and left people with bugger all . . .


. . . oh hang on, that's what they're worried about isn't it

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Carth

Nail on head as I see it

Maybe that would change though if half of the 'financial sector' down south suddenly uprooted and moved to Slovenia (with the aid of EU grants) and left people with bugger all . . .


. . . oh hang on, that's what they're worried about isn't it

A political choice was taken to make us a country that dealt with services and not manufacturing. The problem being services can be highly concentrated in small booming areas.

This wasn’t the fault of the EU. Successive governments of both colours did little to resolve it just parking people on benefits until they got to pension age. It was only sustainable during the boom. Now it’s not. Austerity has hit the exact same communities again.

We digress... but at least there’s some agreement!

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s not a sidestep of the question. Society is fractured. People in working class towns and villages have literally nothing in common with the London financial bubble.

For many they have literally no investment in the success, or otherwise, of the wider economy because they won’t (or at least believe they won’t) see it.

The referendum won’t solve people’s problems either way, but it’ll solve politicians problems.

The people you seem so concerned about are the same ones who carried the Leave victory in 2016, whereas the ones who have never given up wailing about Brexit are the ones who live in a bubble where cheap wine and long weekends on the continent are perceived to be at risk.

Granted here in Scotland the political dynamic is somewhat different, but that’s because the natural Leave support base in the central belt is still in thrall to the SNP, which is still clinging to the bizarre, contradictory ideas that Brexit will be a disaster for Scotland whilst Scexit would somehow bring about nirvana.

Regardless, a second referendum campaign would solve nothing. In the event of a further Leave victory we would have all the same accusations of lies and misrepresentation as we have had since 2016. The problem has never been a faulty or illegitimate campaign in 2016; the problem has only and ever been the disconnect between our overwhelmingly Remain political class (and the commentariat that hangs on its coat tails), and the clear majority of the population which is for Leave, most especially in those parts of the country that don’t get to experience the prosperity they are assured the EU has brought about.

Originally Posted by Chris

The people you seem so concerned about are the same ones who carried the Leave victory in 2016, whereas the ones who have never given up wailing about Brexit are the ones who live in a bubble where cheap wine and long weekends on the continent are perceived to be at risk.

Granted here in Scotland the political dynamic is somewhat different, but that’s because the natural Leave support base in the central belt is still in thrall to the SNP, which is still clinging to the bizarre, contradictory ideas that Brexit will be a disaster for Scotland whilst Scexit would somehow bring about nirvana.

Regardless, a second referendum campaign would solve nothing. In the event of a further Leave victory we would have all the same accusations of lies and misrepresentation as we have had since 2016. The problem has never been a faulty or illegitimate campaign in 2016; the problem has only and ever been the disconnect between our overwhelmingly Remain political class (and the commentariat that hangs on its coat tails), and the clear majority of the population which is for Leave, most especially in those parts of the country that don’t get to experience the prosperity they are assured the EU has brought about.

Only if they lied and misrepresented (and illegally funded) again.

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s inevitable now. If no deal was viable we’d be out. If there was support for a plan we’d have had it. We’ve been to the cliff edge and walked back.

Will you stop going on about a second referendum, I am sure you keep bringing it up, just to piss off the other side - pack it in - there is not the numbers for it in HoC and it has been defeated 3 times already - be told.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

Will you stop going on about a second referendum, I am sure you keep bringing it up, just to piss off the other side - pack it in - there is not the numbers for it in HoC and it has been defeated 3 times already - be told.

And yet it's on the agenda for the ongoing Tory/Labour Brexit talks. Think it will be a last option, but they'll come back to it eventually.