Yet again - Cyclist Killed in London

[Taf]

Large chunks of main roads here have been turned into bus lanes.

And now they have allowed cyclists to ride in the bus lanes. Result: traffic chaos as buses pull out of bus lanes occupied by cyclists; buses not keeping to schedule; cyclists happy with their extra wide "cycle lanes".

[Osem]

I don't know whether you think I have a problem with cyclists but I can assure you I don't and it doesn't wind me up when another one gets crushed any more than when anyone else dies on our roads. This thread is about cyclists which is why I'm commenting on them and the idiocy some of them still insist on displaying, especially when they're fully aware that there are plenty of idiotic drivers out there who could kill them at any moment. I just find that very curious. How soon the required cycle routes in all our major towns and cities appear in sufficient numbers to affect the death toll will remain to be seen but since I never drive in C. London it won't affect me one jot.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Taf

Large chunks of main roads here have been turned into bus lanes.

And now they have allowed cyclists to ride in the bus lanes. Result: traffic chaos as buses pull out of bus lanes occupied by cyclists; buses not keeping to schedule; cyclists happy with their extra wide "cycle lanes".

I think you're overstating the chaos thing. Buses don't keep to schedule because there's too much motorised traffic not because they are hampered by cyclists.

Originally Posted by Osem

I don't know whether you think I have a problem with cyclists but I can assure you I don't and it doesn't wind me up when another one gets crushed any more than when anyone else dies on our roads. This thread is about cyclists which is why I'm commenting on them and the idiocy some of them still insist on displaying, especially when they're fully aware that there are plenty of idiotic drivers out there who could kill them at any moment. I just find that very curious. How soon the required cycle routes in all our major towns and cities appear in sufficient numbers to affect the death toll will remain to be seen but since I never drive in C. London it won't affect me one jot.

I must be misinterpreting your comments which seem one-sided: "cyclists are idiots and that is why they die" is a point of view that misses the more complex state of affairs that is leading to an increasing number of cyclist deaths. I think something needs to be done other than saying "another idiot has died".

Did you see the open heart surgery undertaken by a doctor on a cyclist at the roadside on "an hour to save your life"? She was a young German girl who'd had her pelvis crushed by a lorry and she had internal bleeding that took her life. She was no idiot; she was a young and vibrant woman who died in a London gutter.

It can't go on.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Kursk

I think you're overstating the chaos thing. Buses don't keep to schedule because there's too much motorised traffic not because they are hampered by cyclists.



I must be misinterpreting your comments which seem one-sided: "cyclists are idiots and that is why they die" is a point of view that misses the more complex state of affairs that is leading to an increasing number of cyclist deaths. I think something needs to be done other than saying "another idiot has died".

Did you see the open heart surgery undertaken by a doctor on a cyclist at the roadside on "an hour to save your life"? She was a young German girl who'd had her pelvis crushed by a lorry and she had internal bleeding that took her life. She was no idiot; she was a young and vibrant woman who died in a London gutter.

It can't go on.

reading these cycling threads it seems to me quite clear that cycling past a lorry/bus/car on the left is a stupid move with a high chance of death or serious injury yet the message seems not to penetrate the cyclists attitude to road safety ,your right it cant go on why should motorists be subjected to this stupidity every day .

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Kursk

Nope. There are dozens of opportunities for cyclists to proceed safely through red lights; all it takes is observation and common sense and if this is seen to be exercised the police turn a blind eye.

The trouble is that a lot of cyclists (and motorists as well) seem to lack the ability to observe and any common sense.

Personally I fail to see how allowing cyclists to ignore red lights makes things any safer for them or other road users. They can still hit pedestrians or motorists who do have a green light.

The problem is road users (and I count all road users in this, including pedestrians) are often not aware of what other road users are doing. That's what causes a lot of accidents, whether you are on foot, on a bike or in some sort of motorised vehicle.

I will be happy to be proved wrong, but I don't see how allowing cyclists to ignore red lights is going to do anything but make that worse.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

reading these cycling threads it seems to me quite clear that cycling past a lorry/bus/car on the left is a stupid move with a high chance of death or serious injury yet the message seems not to penetrate the cyclists attitude to road safety ,your right it cant go on why should motorists be subjected to this stupidity every day .

I agree. Starting immediately we should identify entire road routes reserved only for cyclists. This will separate the stupid from the stupid.

Originally Posted by Stuart

Personally I fail to see how allowing cyclists to ignore red lights makes things any safer for them or other road users. They can still hit pedestrians or motorists who do have a green light.

IMHO there are many circumstances in which a red light can be safely passed by a cautious cyclist. The French Government agree.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by Kursk

I think you're overstating the chaos thing. Buses don't keep to schedule because there's too much motorised traffic not because they are hampered by cyclists.

Not at all. The council, the bus company, bus drivers and the bus users group have all stated that allowing cyclists to use bus lanes has caused the flow of buses on bus lanes to be totally disrupted.

Calls to force buses to stay in buslanes have been ignored.

Calls to ban cyclists from buslanes have been ignored.

So if there are complaints coming from all directions, who is ignoring the calls for changes to the rules?

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Kursk

IMHO there are many circumstances in which a red light can be safely passed by a cautious cyclist. The French Government agree.

What works well in France does not necessarily work well over here. But there may be other factors in play. A lot of the cyclists I've dealt with in the past have been (I would argue) spectacularly unobservant. Not all, or, I'd argue, even most. But a significant number. I think ALL road users need to remember they aren't the only person on the road, so they need to be observant, alert (even to the point of following the highway code's advice about taking regular breaks on long journeys) and even courteous to other road users. It'll never happen, but I feel the roads would be so much safer if people were just polite to each other while using them.


The Telegraph makes the point (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ffic-laws.html) that the new law prevents cyclists bunching up at traffic lights then all going en masse when the light goes green. I can see how this would make things more dangerous for both cyclists and motorists, but outside of the major cities, how often do you see cyclists bunched up at the lights?

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Taf

Not at all. The council, the bus company, bus drivers and the bus users group have all stated that allowing cyclists to use bus lanes has caused the flow of buses on bus lanes to be totally disrupted.

Calls to force buses to stay in buslanes have been ignored.

Calls to ban cyclists from buslanes have been ignored.

So if there are complaints coming from all directions, who is ignoring the calls for changes to the rules?

Why do you feel buses ought to have priority of road usage? Is my cycle journey less important that someone who gets the bus? Nope.

The authorities need to get together and work out an alternative strategy that accommodates all road users, including cyclists.

Originally Posted by Stuart

What works well in France does not necessarily work well over here. But there may be other factors in play. A lot of the cyclists I've dealt with in the past have been (I would argue) spectacularly unobservant. Not all, or, I'd argue, even most. But a significant number. I think ALL road users need to remember they aren't the only person on the road, so they need to be observant, alert (even to the point of following the highway code's advice about taking regular breaks on long journeys) and even courteous to other road users. It'll never happen, but I feel the roads would be so much safer if people were just polite to each other while using them.

The Telegraph makes the point (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ffic-laws.html) that the new law prevents cyclists bunching up at traffic lights then all going en masse when the light goes green. I can see how this would make things more dangerous for both cyclists and motorists, but outside of the major cities, how often do you see cyclists bunched up at the lights?

We're all obliged to use the roads with the safety of others in mind. There are stupid cyclists, stupid motorists and stupid pedestrians; if we don't focus on the sensible majority nothing will ever get done.

A little more vision is needed. Cyclists are not going to disappear. They will always use the road network. If there needs to be changes to space sharing then nit picking small details won't be enough.

With cycling on the increase, radical reform of road use is necessary.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Kursk

I think you're overstating the chaos thing. Buses don't keep to schedule because there's too much motorised traffic not because they are hampered by cyclists.



I must be misinterpreting your comments which seem one-sided: "cyclists are idiots and that is why they die" is a point of view that misses the more complex state of affairs that is leading to an increasing number of cyclist deaths. I think something needs to be done other than saying "another idiot has died".

Did you see the open heart surgery undertaken by a doctor on a cyclist at the roadside on "an hour to save your life"? She was a young German girl who'd had her pelvis crushed by a lorry and she had internal bleeding that took her life. She was no idiot; she was a young and vibrant woman who died in a London gutter.

It can't go on.

Yes you must be because you're missing out where I have qualified my views and pointed at that not all cyclists are idiots any more than all drivers are.

From my post:

the idiocy some of them still insist on displaying, especially when they're fully aware that there are plenty of idiotic drivers out there who could kill them at any moment

Yes I did see that show, very moving it was too and I refer you to my previous comments one more time. I have no idea whether what she did on that day was idiotic and neither do you. Of course one, idiotic decision, doesn't make someone a complete idiot does it - you and I both know that. What you seem to be trying to do, however, is imply that I believe all cyclists are to blame when in fact I have never said, written or implied that so please desist.

Yes something does need to be done about this and at the top of the list is that cyclists need to take more responsibility for their own actions. That won't take years and £millions. It's not even radical. It could be done overnight if those involved wanted to do it. The results would be immediate and many of the fatalities and serious injuries which result from cyclists being invisible and vulnerable due to lack of lighting, proper clothing and headgear would be avoided. Now that really isn't stating that all cyclists are idiots and that nobody else is at fault. Neither is it implying that nothing else could/should be done to make our roads safer for all road users and pedestrians. It's merely pointing out that self preservation ought to be higher on the list of priorities for many cyclists than it is and that would be good for everyone.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Osem

What you seem to be trying to do, however, is imply that I believe all cyclists are to blame when in fact I have never said, written or implied that so please desist.

I am simply addressing the anti-cycling theme of the thread; this often leads to collateral damage in my scatter gun defence. Please don't take it personally .

Originally Posted by dave6x

Have to agree with much of what you say.

When my father started teaching me to drive, well over 40 years ago, he said:

"Just remember that everyone on the road is an idiot, including you, and you won't go far wrong!"

Absolutely - my driving instructor (many many moons ago) said "Look ahead and watch out for the idiots - remember other drivers will have had the same tip about you...".

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Kursk

I am simply addressing the anti-cycling theme of the thread; this often leads to collateral damage in my scatter gun defence. Please don't take it personally .

It's hard not to take it personally when you were referring to what I'd written.

Responsibility needs to be exercised on al sides but whilst anyone can just get on a bike and ride anywhere, with no training or knowledge of our roads and the highway code I'm surprised more cyclists aren't killed to be honest.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Osem

It's hard not to take it personally when you were referring to what I'd written.

In a previous post you accused me of writing 'puerile drivel' but, well, I took it on the chin. Man up: it's the cut and thrust of forum life.

Originally Posted by Osem

Responsibility needs to be exercised on al sides but whilst anyone can just get on a bike and ride anywhere, with no training or knowledge of our roads and the highway code I'm surprised more cyclists aren't killed to be honest.

Luckily, motorists are trained to care for these innocents.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by Kursk

Why do you feel buses ought to have priority of road usage?

I do not, but someone, or some group, within the council, is trying very hard to make this city very anti-car and very pro-bus. And by now bowing to the demands of cyclists they have removed the main benefit of the bus lanes, namley mass public transport on dedicated lanes to allow them to run on time.

To do this they have, as I said before, taken up huge chunks of road-space for bus lanes.

And now they have closed the bus station, which is outside the main rail station, and taken up more road space for off-site bus "halts".

Not at all an integrated transport arrangement, but a disintegrated transport system.