still racist

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Yet people are suprised that there are more Bangladeshis working in curry houses than white people and jump to the conclusion that whites are obviously being discriminated against.

I don't see anyone jumping to any conclusions, do you? Actually scrub that - perhaps the wrong person to ask, seeing as you seem to think so.

What I see is someone describing the local situation and questioning why things are the way they are.

---------- Post added at 23:44 ---------- Previous post was at 23:41 ----------

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

and a predominate reason is that hardly anyone else wants to work on the same wages doing the same long hours.

...and yet they seem to do so in other jobs. Security for instance. I'm not accusing anyone of racism, but I don't accept the "whites don't want to work for the same low pay and hours" argument.

Surely they get the minimum wage, just like most other waitress/waiter jobs ?

[Pia]

Of course they will, and i know a few people who have worked in chinese/indian restaurants and they came out with not bad money really because they got their tips, unlike where i work and there are no asian/black people working in the place i work, so i'd say in some, possibly a lot of cases that indian restaurant and the like pay better. Quite few Polish people work at our place though.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Russ B

I don't see anyone jumping to any conclusions, do you? Actually scrub that - perhaps the wrong person to ask, seeing as you seem to think so.

What I see is someone describing the local situation and questioning why things are the way they are.

---------- Post added at 23:44 ---------- Previous post was at 23:41 ----------



...and yet they seem to do so in other jobs. Security for instance. I'm not accusing anyone of racism, but I don't accept the "whites don't want to work for the same low pay and hours" argument.

The restaurant trade is totally different from security in the nature of its work. I've not worked in security but Ive spent a few weeks helping a close friend when he set up his restaurant in Leicester. From comparing my role with that of my uncle who works in security in Slough, my job was much harder. I am reasonably fit but mentally and physically come 12am, I just wanted to go home, not clean up tables and the kitchen. I would say the resturant trade is much tougher than most security roles Ive seen, and if they were paying the same I'd rather be in security than in waiting in a restaurant.

I do believe that there are a lot of White english people (I live in London) who do not want do do 'menial' jobs such as waitressing/waiting, cleaning, chambermaiding. The Hilton hotel in Purley way croydon would be paying the minimum wage to its chambermaids, why are they all black or eastern european? Is the Hilton discriminating, or are only these people applying for the job.

My current contract sees me working in a blue chip consultancy firm in London. All the cleaners are Nigerian. I have been there 18 months and I have yet to see a White english person (ie born and bred here) cleaning the toilets at work.

THis is not just happening in those 2 companies, but is typical in industry today. Are you telling me that all cleaning, hotel and restauranteers are being racist? or discriminating?

I think not.

Originally Posted by jkat

no i would call that putting things right

You're having a laugh - with comments like that you expect to be taken seriously ?

Perhaps we could equally say that stopping more blacks than whites is 'putting things right'

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

The restaurant trade is totally different from security in the nature of its work.

Work differs from company to company. Some security work is easy, sitting in a cabin watching CCTV screen, others risk their lives in retail with violent shoplifters. Your perameters earlier were "low pay and long hours".

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

I do believe that there are a lot of White english people (I live in London) who do not want do do 'menial' jobs such as waitressing/waiting, cleaning, chambermaiding.

And yet they still do them?

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

THis is not just happening in those 2 companies, but is typical in industry today. Are you telling me that all cleaning, hotel and restauranteers are being racist? or discriminating?

Why are you automatically assuming I believe racism is involved? All I'm doing is asking why something happens the way it does. You should know I won't mince words, if I thought racism was the key then I'd come right out and say it.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Russ B

Work differs from company to company. Some security work is easy, sitting in a cabin watching CCTV screen, others risk their lives in retail with violent shoplifters. Your perameters earlier were "low pay and long hours".



And yet they still do them?



Why are you automatically assuming I believe racism is involved? All I'm doing is asking why something happens the way it does. You should know I won't mince words, if I thought racism was the key then I'd come right out and say it.

Yes there are white English people who do cleaning and chambermaiding, but in every single comapny I have worked in (in the last 12 years of my employment working across over a dozen blue chip companies) I have yet to see even 10 percent of white english people doing the cleaning at any of the premises I have worked in.

In Tooting, Balham, even Croydon, in the restaurants I go in (indian, also Pizza Hut, Pizza Express, Nandoes, Thai restaurants, etc etc) the majority of staff are not white English.

Most security men at the buildings that I work in in the Strand and Farringdon are either south African or black Africans.

So thats my basis of when I say that in my opinion a high percentage of White english people do not want to do those jobs. The blacks, asianss, foreigners, eastern europens etc etc that do, probably have no choic but to do so. Maybe they wont be entitled to benefits by sitting at home, maybe they are here illegally and will work for anything etc etc, but I cant see companies like Prudential and BP and SHell employing illegal immigrants, even through third parties.

I was not saying that you Russ B, feel that racism or discrimination is involved. This thread is titled racism and there are posters implying that restauranteers or asian business are only employing pakistanis because they are discriminating. My question was open to the participants of the thread, maybe it didnt look that way. It was not targetted at you personally.

So anyway, since you dont think racism is involved, why do you think that this is the case Russ?.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Yes there are white English people who do cleaning and chambermaiding, but in every single comapny I have worked in (in the last 12 years of my employment working across over a dozen blue chip companies) I have yet to see even 10 percent of white english people doing the cleaning at any of the premises I have worked in.

In Tooting, Balham, even Croydon, in the restaurants I go in (indian, also Pizza Hut, Pizza Express, Nandoes, Thai restaurants, etc etc) the majority of staff are not white English.

This is why I initially suggested it's geographical - around here most of the employees of the companies you mention are white Welsh people.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Most security men at the buildings that I work in in the Strand and Farringdon are either south African or black Africans.

Ditto above.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

So anyway, since you dont think racism is involved, why do you think that this is the case Russ?.

I have no idea - hence my asking what others thought. I'm willing to believe it's not racism but I balk at the notion that white Brits don't want the same hours and pay.

It was going so well..


but then this is CF...

[Pierre]

The problem is that some politicians and other equally unqualified experts seem to believe in the misnomer that is a multi-culturial society.

It doesn't work, people like to be around their own kind, it makes them feel secure and safe. If you're an immigrant you don't want to be the only immigrant on you street, You'll feel like an outcast. If immigration was a slow process then the immigrants coming in would feel like they had to integrate in order to belong, but with the levels of mass immigration large communities have been born and therefore immigrants feel like they don't need to integrate.

Also in areas where there are a lot of immigrants where are all the former owners of these houses??? Well as soon as an area starts to get a large asian population then all the white people scarper because suddenly they're in the minority and don't feel comfortable with that and need to move to where they're back in the majority. All their kids are pulled out the local school because there are too many asian kids there and you end up with 99% asian schools and 99% white schools literally hundreds of yards from each other. So the next generation of kids don't mix leading to more segregation of communities.

Integration doesn't work, multi-culturalism doesn't work (well not the way this and previous governments have tackled it).

multi-culturalism and integration would and could work if immigration had been controlled and thought about and immigrants had been given time for their communities to integrate with the existing communities instead of the mass immigration we got which threw it all out of kilter.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Pierre

The problem is that some politicians and other equally unqualified experts seem to believe in the misnomer that is a multi-culturial society.

It doesn't work, people like to be around their own kind, it makes them feel secure and safe. If you're an immigrant you don't want to be the only immigrant on you street, You'll feel like an outcast. If immigration was a slow process then the immigrants coming in would feel like they had to integrate in order to belong, but with the levels of mass immigration large communities have been born and therefore immigrants feel like they don't need to integrate.

Also in areas where there are a lot of immigrants where are all the former owners of these houses??? Well as soon as an area starts to get a large asian population then all the white people scarper because suddenly they're in the minority and don't feel comfortable with that and need to move to where they're back in the majority. All their kids are pulled out the local school because there are too many asian kids there and you end up with 99% asian schools and 99% white schools literally hundreds of yards from each other. So the next generation of kids don't mix leading to more segregation of communities.

Integration doesn't work, multi-culturalism doesn't work (well not the way this and previous governments have tackled it).

multi-culturalism and integration would and could work if immigration had been controlled and thought about and immigrants had been given time for their communities to integrate with the existing communities instead of the mass immigration we got which threw it all out of kilter.

I think you have probably hit the nail on the head to a certain extent, I know in Cardiff the immigrants who came in many years ago were sailors that settled there. I believe the majority were single men who settled and married local women, this has meant they have integrated into society.
There does tend to be distinct areas in Cardiff where these immigrants live, but I think that was mainly due to them living close to the area they worked.

I also know a black Jamiaican family ( an ex-girfriend of mine) whos mother came over here after getting a british passport when Jamaica became independant. She has 2 sisters and 3 brothers all married, and the strange thing is not one member of her immediate family are married to a black person. So you could say they have fully integrated into the community unlike other races.

I think very often its all down to accepting that you are no better than anyone else, and different cultures act differently and have different morals. Some races will never integrate into this country because they disagree with our way of life and our religious beliefs, at the end of the day as they say.

When in Rome do as the Romans do.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Escapee

I think you have probably hit the nail on the head to a certain extent, I know in Cardiff the immigrants who came in many years ago were sailors that settled there. I believe the majority were single men who settled and married local women, this has meant they have integrated into society.
There does tend to be distinct areas in Cardiff where these immigrants live, but I think that was mainly due to them living close to the area they worked.

I also know a black Jamiaican family ( an ex-girfriend of mine) whos mother came over here after getting a british passport when Jamaica became independant. She has 2 sisters and 3 brothers all married, and the strange thing is not one member of her immediate family are married to a black person. So you could say they have fully integrated into the community unlike other races.

.

So, going by your examples above you have to marry someone outside your culture/religion/race to fully integrate? And the black person above has fully integrated unlike other races? Well not knowing how you are defining race, what about the black Jamaicans who are married to black people. Are they not of the same race as the woman in your example above? HAve they failed to integrate?

If a Pakistani muslim marries an English born white muslim (yes they do exist) has the asian person integrated, or failed to because he is still a muslim? Are converts to Islam born and bred in this country now not integrating anymore?

I think you are saying that non Christians should abandon their religious convictions if they want to integrate in this country? Is that right?

I think your reasoning and argument is totally differnt to Pierre's who makes some good points that can be discussed. Your views just often make me shake my head in disbelieve when I read them.

[sssshhhh]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

In Tooting (SOuth London), most if not all of the Indian/Pakistani restaurants have asian waiters. There are som ethat have white workers who happen to be Eastern European. I have a friend who owns a restuarant in Tooting and he tells me that when he has a vacancy for a waiter, his first choice of staff would be a family member or a friend of family etc etc. The reason for this is that he is looking to sort out either his own family member (extended family) with a job or someone else he might know. The chef is almost always exclusively a pakistani/indian often a family memberr because like it or not if you want to go and eat an authentic indian you'd rather eat one cooked by an Indian(well I know I would). I go to eat outr in Portuguese restaurants frquently, and the chefs are all Portuguese. Thats my preference as Im sure it would be with the magority of diners looking for an authentically cooked meal.


As for people coming in looking for work, he tells me that he hardly ever gets an enquiry from an English white person to work in the restaurant, and if anyone does come to ask, they dont want to work for the relatively low wages and long hours that he is paying.

He has told me on more than one occassion that he would love to employ english girls as waitresses in his restaurant, as they would be more flirtatious with the staff then his asian male waiters.

There is also a muslim run cafe/italian restaurant in Tooting which has white female staff. They are all eastern European, and he pays a minimum wage and the tips are good.

In central London most of the restaurant waitresses are white Eastern European girls.

The pattern to me is that white English people do not want to work in the restaurant/takeaway industry because it does not meet there payment expectations. I have previously posted on this forum about my difficulty in getting an English person to work in a sales role because the hourly rate was minimum wage + commission. 90% of the people responding to my advert were asian/foreign (non English).

So in my opinion only Asians in the restaurant industry is not solely based on the jobs only being made available to asians, but a lot is also to do with UK white people not applying or wanting to work in such industries.

I live in a village with a population of just a few thousand. We have a local indian restaurant and takeaway and the owner has been trating in our village for 30 years. A mate of mine (welsh and white) managed the restaurant for him. He was a chef but left all the cooking to the Indian chefs. they were superb at what they did. They cook traditional Indian dishes in the way that they are taught from the region they or their famiy originate from. That is what makes certain curries taste better/worse in different restaurants.

I also worked in the restaurant for a bit when I was a bit short on cash, and they all welcomed me with open arms.

For me the problem with an debate on racism these days means the white community having to take criticism but other communitie's play the victim. As i said earlier that is simply not the case i have been on the end of some pretty unpleasant racism from members of the asian community mainly after 9/11 when i had asian lads driving past in their cars telling me i should have been in the twin towers and they hoped i and all like me died like the "kafir's" (think thats how it is spelt) we are. It is a debate that while i would hope there can be a peaceful solution too i can't help but feel enoch powell was more accurate about how it will be resolved sadly.

[Womble]

Originally Posted by Pierre

The problem is that some politicians and other equally unqualified experts seem to believe in the misnomer that is a multi-cultural society.

It doesn't work, people like to be around their own kind, it makes them feel secure and safe. If you're an immigrant you don't want to be the only immigrant on you street, You'll feel like an outcast. If immigration was a slow process then the immigrants coming in would feel like they had to integrate in order to belong, but with the levels of mass immigration large communities have been born and therefore immigrants feel like they don't need to integrate.

Also in areas where there are a lot of immigrants where are all the former owners of these houses??? Well as soon as an area starts to get a large Asian population then all the white people scarper because suddenly they're in the minority and don't feel comfortable with that and need to move to where they're back in the majority. All their kids are pulled out the local school because there are too many Asian kids there and you end up with 99% Asian schools and 99% white schools literally hundreds of yards from each other. So the next generation of kids don't mix leading to more segregation of communities.

Integration doesn't work, multi-cultural-ism doesn't work (well not the way this and previous governments have tackled it).

multi-cultural-ism and integration would and could work if immigration had been controlled and thought about and immigrants had been given time for their communities to integrate with the existing communities instead of the mass immigration we got which threw it all out of kilter.

Spot on!!
But, lets be honest, This and previous gov have only let in immigrants to keep the wages of the working man down!
In the 50's they were not going to pay a decent wage for bus drivers etc, so they bought in the west Indians. More recently, Builders were starting to earn good money again after the 90's crash. They cant have the peasants doing to well, so we'll let in a load of cheap eastern euro labour, now the day rates are starting to fall because the Poles are undercutting everyone, well they can, they don't pay tax or VAT ffs.
At the end of the day successive Govt's are to blame not the immigrants.
This country is run for the rich, not the workers