School stands up for discipline and rules

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Paul

The evidence could just point to you growing up and realising that you needed a better education than you left school with

Indeed, exactly what happened to me. I left school with sod all and no-one to blame but myself. I soon realised that I had to get my arse in gear and went to an FE college and onto Uni.

Originally Posted by Paul

The evidence could just point to you growing up and realising that you needed a better education than you left school with

I refute that allegation totally. How dare you suggest I've done some growing up. I'm 40 now and still have a mind like a playgroup.



Actually the key to my FE success was, I think, being treated as an adult which led to greater respect for my lecturers and greater acceptance of my own responsibility. Some (not all) of my school teachers were plonkers, including my form tutor who amazingly gets me back on topic by virtue of once telling me and my dad that he'd rather I came to school in black shorts rather than the cords I was wearing cos my school trousers were worn out (and I only had a few weeks to go and my dad was buggered if he was going to buy me a new pair).

[allieyoung666]

Originally Posted by andyl

I refute that allegation totally. How dare you suggest I've done some growing up. I'm 40 now and still have a mind like a playgroup.



Actually the key to my FE success was, I think, being treated as an adult which led to greater respect for my lecturers and greater acceptance of my own responsibility. Some (not all) of my school teachers were plonkers, including my form tutor who amazingly gets me back on topic by virtue of once telling me and my dad that he'd rather I came to school in black shorts rather than the cords I was wearing cos my school trousers were worn out (and I only had a few weeks to go and my dad was buggered if he was going to buy me a new pair).

I know my kids have gone through 4pairs in a year!!!!I am begining to think they walk on their knees!!! So Jack is now in Cords! and Con is wearing brown shorts as I cannot afford to pull out another £12 for 6wks wear, and I think connor has taken growth hormones!!!!

A quick other thought. Where do teachers get their job satisfaction from? A kid goes through 11 years of school only to be halted at the exam hall door by a pair of quite tasteful and understated trainers. Kid loses and the teachers who delivered those 11 years lose.

And to get those who've not yet signed up to be under my command in the PC Brigade, think of all that taxpayers money down the plughole!

Originally Posted by andyl

A quick other thought. Where do teachers get their job satisfaction from? A kid goes through 11 years of school only to be halted at the exam hall door by a pair of quite tasteful and understated trainers. Kid loses and the teachers who delivered those 11 years lose.

And to get those who've not yet signed up to be under my command in the PC Brigade, think of all that taxpayers money down the plughole!

I think that's rather simplistic. Given that the behaviour exhibited by this boy is unlikely to have been a sudden development, but more likely part of a pattern well known to the teachers over many years, I would have thought the teachers had already spent a long time watching taxpayers' money going down the drain on his account, and had already failed to derive job satisfaction out of him. In fact, I expect only sheer professionalism helped them continue to give him his education, when by all other measures there was little point.

As I don't know the lad this is somewhat speculative on my part, you understand, but it is a contrary view to your own, no less speculative scenario.

[allieyoung666]

you only probally know half the story as well, you know how stories can be distorted and twisted out of all proportion and that is todays society!

Originally Posted by Chris T

I think that's rather simplistic. Given that the behaviour exhibited by this boy is unlikely to have been a sudden development, but more likely part of a pattern well known to the teachers over many years, I would have thought the teachers had already spent a long time watching taxpayers' money going down the drain on his account, and had already failed to derive job satisfaction out of him. In fact, I expect only sheer professionalism helped them continue to give him his education, when by all other measures there was little point.

As I don't know the lad this is somewhat speculative on my part, you understand, but it is a contrary view to your own, no less speculative scenario.

You have to speculate to obfuscate as the old saying goes. OK, we're both speculating - you more than me though - given you believe, because this lad breaks da rules with his modest trainers he's got a long history of deviant behaviour and that the teachers, of whom we know nothing, have persevered through sheer professionalism etc. That's more speculating than George Soros does!

But do you take my point that to stop (or at least discourage) a child who you've been teaching for years from taking an exam is to remove any semblance of job satisfaction that could have been had. I'd be gutted to ditch a project at the last hurdle and I would have thought - and hoped - teachers shared that point of view. Unless they only do the job for those long summer holidays (Coggy, FYI, just my little wind up! ).

[orangebird]

A bit late on this one, but here's my 2pence worth.

I cannot believe that a school put more importance on the boys footwear than they did on him being able to sit an exam and achieve something.

Lots of you are calling him a chav... why? I'd just be bloody grateful that the child turned up to sit the exam in the first place. So what happens now? He'll get one less qualification, giving him less opportunity to do something with his life. Great decision the school made there. One child underachieves due to some tosspot jobsworth, but at least there wasn't any unsuitable footwear in the exam hall. Good one.

And I wouldn't wear second hand shoes either.
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Originally Posted by andyl

A quick other thought. Where do teachers get their job satisfaction from? A kid goes through 11 years of school only to be halted at the exam hall door by a pair of quite tasteful and understated trainers. Kid loses and the teachers who delivered those 11 years lose.

And to get those who've not yet signed up to be under my command in the PC Brigade, think of all that taxpayers money down the plughole!

I think I'm joining up!....

Anther thought - how is it a mother can go to prison for not doing enough to stop her children playing truant, but a teacher can turn a child away from an exam for them wearing the wrong shoes. Proposterous. Lunacy.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

With all due respect he was offered a solution which he turned down.In his shoes(sorry)I would have taken the choice offered and sat the exam in the borrowed shoes.

With all due respect as I've already said, IMO the solution offered was not a sensible one.

Seems to me, that the ,the,the idiot has his priorities all skewed

It seems to me that the teacher is the one with the skewed priorities.

Which is more important? The child wearing the right shoes or the child missing the exam?

As to the rest of what you said, that is pure speculation as far as I can see and isn't worth addressing.
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Originally Posted by Pierre

but when you get "psycologists" from Grahams post fawning over the poor little children.

When, of course, we all know that the correct adage is "spare the rod and spoil the child"...

These kids have to be taught responsibility, thery have to know what is acceptable and what isn't, they have to know that their actions will have an effect on their futures and we should stop making excuses for them.

Nobody is saying they shouldn't, however you don't teach children to behave in mature and responsible ways by acting like a kid yourself.

I once came up with a new definition of "cheeky":

"Cheeky is when a child is behaving like an adult whilst an adult is behaving like a child"!

I did have to smile at:

and from the article:

It's not just the Daily Mail readers that can jump to conclusions eh Graham?

I'm not sure what your point is here. On the one hand we have the "Daily Mail" speculation that (paraphrased) "if we let the little buggers have an inch they'll take a mile and society will fall down around our ears" (something which doesn't actually seem to have happened) wheras on the other we have the evidence of children, especially those from minorities, being excluded from schools and, having nothing better to do/ no better guidance and ending up becoming criminals.

Perhaps you just jumped to a conclusion there?
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Originally Posted by Chris T

As for the world going 'Daily Mail' on us ... don't forget that the Mail is the country's best selling mid-market paper because it's the one that best reflects the attitudes and opinions of the middle classes. I think the Mail's editorial line reflects the country's attitudes more than it sets them.

And the Sun is the country's best selling newspaper. Why? Because it panders to the lowest common denominator, just like the Mail does to the "middle classes".

[paulyoung666]

it seems to me the ones who do not have kids are the ones making the stupid opnions!

[Graham]

Originally Posted by nffc

Bleh.... we don't know the history do we.

No, but then you immediately go on to speculate...!

They'd presumably also been told to wear full school uniform

Speculation.

and if they weren't, they'd be refused entry into exams!

Speculation.

And let's not forget he was also offered a choice.

A "choice" that was not a reasonable choice at all.

Spare shoes, that DID fit in the regulations- which he turned down for alleged "medical reasons".

"Alleged", implying that there weren't really reasons. More speculation.

He had the choice to take the exam in the spare shoes or to not take it in his chavwear,

"Chavwear". Yet more speculation. (If they had been so blatantly "chavvy" I doubt very much he'd have got away with it for so long, but looking at the picture which, I presume, are the trainers in question, it's not as if they're bright white or similar.)

he chose to walk out.

He was offered a "choice" between "wear someone else's shoes" (not something I would choose to do whether I had a medical condition or not) and "go home and come back", it isn't really much of a choice.

Which provokes a few thoughts...

Read "speculations based on no evidence".

He may have also had warnings about not wearing proper uniform *not necessarily footwear* in the past,

Any evidence of these? Nope. Just speculation.

the school may also have a zero tolerance policy in exams.

In which case it should have been made perfectly clear, which doesn't sound as if it was the case from what the article says.

And, frankly, having ZT policies in exams but not for the rest of the school year sounds a pretty silly idea to me.

As it stands, we have a brief one-sided account of the incident.

Yes, that is, at least, correct.

It would be interesting to see detailed statements from both sides, and also if there's any history, because apart from what we know, there's little about the incident itself.

I agree.

Personally I feel the school were right sticking up for the rules but OK, if others feel Little Johnny is able to get away with whatever he wants to and has a right to sit exams regardless, etc etc, than that's fair enough- but boy, the PC brigade is really beginning to really **** me off!

And boy, the "string them up brigade" are ****ing me off too.

Has *ANYONE* said that he should be "able to get away with whatever he wants to and has a right to sit exams regardless"? No.

Please don't try to put words into people's mouths it doesn't help your arguments.
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Originally Posted by paulyoung666

it seems to me the ones who do not have kids are the ones making the stupid opnions!

Thank you for that constructive contribution to the debate.

[allieyoung666]

It isnt the teacher who is screwed, it is the kid as he thought he would try it on!
The problem is todays society is falling round us and if nobody starting putting their feet down, this country may as well be a giant amusement park, as the adults are going to start getting afraid of the kids. And I see it happen all the time on the way to school, chavmister and his chronies taking the mick out of everyone who goes near or past them, many of these have not done a thing, just going about doing their daily business, even the kids who go to the local private schools seem to be prime target for this lot. I have stood up to them, but now I cannot go past them as one of them decided to give the eldest one a good kick up the jacksy, and they know if I turn and give them a bleedn good hiding I will be the one who will end up in jail and they know it.
It is about time that someone stood up even more and put them back in their place. The moment the eldest starts giving me and paul the lip he is put straight back in his place. The problem is that todays society does not care anymore and there is not enough of us to make a difference to todays youth.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Graham

which doesn't sound as if it was the case from what the article says.

"Speculation......"

[allieyoung666]

That wasnt Paul that was me, but you do not have any kids so how can you comment on how to bring other peoples children up??? I was just wondering that was all????

[Graham]

Originally Posted by allieyoung666

That wasnt Paul that was me, but you do not have any kids so how can you comment on how to bring other peoples children up??? I was just wondering that was all????