Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[madslug]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

We handed out over 1000 fliers today and they all went to interested parties as opposed to just shoving them into the hands of random passers by.

Only 1000? No wonder my throat was so dry after all that talking.

I feel that one of the many successes of today was that there were not that many demonstrators there. It gave us a lot of open space which allowed people to walk passed and amongst us without feeling intimidated. It also made it easier to get eye contact with the public to engage them in conversation. Even those wearing BT IDs did not all run away (as Alex mentioned with the in-house laywer).

The most rewarding was the shock reaction from so many. And the fact that most people seemed to be very happy that someone was taking the time to warn them about the threat to their privacy. Yes, Joe Public regards this to be an invasion of their privacy.

My one regret is that every time I saw the computer I was reminded that not once had I mentioned to anyone that they could sign the petition here and now.

[warescouse]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

Indeed and many thanks for PG from inphormation desk for producing the flier text in a language which was comprehensive to the general public. We handed out over 1000 fliers today and they all went to interested parties as opposed to just shoving them into the hands of random passers by.

One very interesting situation which I almost forgot. There were some BT OpenReach lawyers there who discussed the system with one of the campaigners and until then had no idea that it was even happening. There were some very frantic phone calls made by them to their colleagues and they took a fist full of fliers with them to discuss the matter further.

Alexander Hanff

And I hope VM have some proper lawyers also. Too much of this Pro Phorm legal analysis by 'unknown' bodies may been dreamt of as far as I am concerned

If anybody has a Pro-Phorm/Webwise proper legal analysis that is compliant with UK (or maybe even English, Scottish, Irish or Welsh) Laws that they can they quote and they will happily put forward for analysis, we would be very interested.

It is really becoming a bit boring having quotes from American companies regurgitated by Phorm long ago about unrelated laws that currently do not hold true now in their own country (USA). There are some very tough questions currently being asked to ISP's by the powers that be in the states about similar DPI interceptions.
Did I hear a nervous laugh?

I am very baffled that this UK Webwise/Phorm possibility is even still on the agenda sheets.

[tdadyslexia]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

[Big Snip]
Furthermore, I have a responsibility to this campaign and this very much involves my own family as I am fighting to protect their rights as well. If I drop everything now what happens? Kent will see it as a victory and it could set the campaign back significantly. I didn't ask to be in this position but I am and I can't abandon my post at such a critical time.
[Snip]

Alex if you don't get some proper sleep you will end up in A&E, So take some time off and recharge your batteries, and spend some quolity time with your wife and child.

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by tdadyslexia

Alex if you don't get some proper sleep you will end up in A&E, So take some time off and recharge your batteries, and spend some quolity time with your wife and child.

The reason we are in this mess in the first place is because most of the country are sleepwalking through their lives. I won't.

I will sleep when the time comes as always happens, I won't end up in A&E there is no danger of that, I am not stressed I am elated and full of life. I will be going to bed shortly but I couldn't sleep now even if I wanted to, it takes a little time to wind down from a day like today (I am sure everyone else who was there is in a similar situation).

Alexander Haff

[bluecar1]

still digging around eu directives, while the couple in the next room of the hotel keep me awake

just seen this in EU directive 95/46/EC

**************
(41)
Whereas any person must be able to exercise the right of access to data relating to him which are being processed, in order to verify in particular the accuracy of the data and the lawfulness of the processing; whereas, for .the same reasons, every data subject must also have the right to know the logic involved in the automatic processing of data concerning him, at least in the case of the automated decisions referred to in Article 15 (1); whereas this right must not adversely affect trade secrets or intellectual property and in particular the copyright protecting the software; whereas these considerations must not, however, result in the data subject being refused all information
*******

this would seem to indicate we are able to do a DPA request to get the information held in the profile if we can provide proof of our unique ID and they can't refuse it

as we are not adversely affecting their trade secrets or IP as we are not after information about the process for deciding which data to included just the information held about us

opens up a whole new avenue for investigation if it does go ahead in trail or full roll out

interesting

peter

[phormwatch]

OK, at some point in the near future, I think it would be a good idea to create an entity-relationship diagram for all the members of BT, Phorm, Home Office, etc. who are involved. Even better would be a time line of who did what and when.

It would help us to clarify the picture and would be a good thing to show other people who are suspicious about the way the Phorm scandal has developed in the UK.

Furthermore, I agree with Alex that it was a very successful day, but it was slightly disappointing that more people didn't show up. We know that there are hundreds of people reading this forum topic and thousands of people who are aware of the issue nationally. Given that is the case, the percentage turnout was very low.

Anyway, on a positive note, Alex and Dephormation were absolute stars today.

---------- Post added at 01:48 ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 ----------

[AlexanderHanff]

Those of you who went to the PIA meeting back in April should be able to remember an elderly gentleman in the audience who was literally choking on his own emotions when he asked a question about Phorm. It was one of the most humbling experiences you could ever have, a man who defended our futures fighting in the war, making sacrifices beyond our comprehension, moved to tears over this issue of privacy. It is the actions of people like him who gave us these rights in the first place; European Convention on Human Rights was bourne out of that war, a time of darkness and loss for millions and here we are just 60 years on throwing it all away.

We should all try to remember him a little more often when we need a reminder of just how important this is.

Alexander Hanff

[warescouse]

Originally Posted by phormwatch

OK, at some point in the near future, I think it would be a good idea to create an entity-relationship diagram for all the members of BT, Phorm, Home Office, etc. who are involved. Even better would be a time line of who did what and when.

Good idea but we should be really be using UML (actors and stakeholders)

[Privacy_Matters]

Originally Posted by bluecar1

still digging around eu directives, while the couple in the next room of the hotel keep me awake

just seen this in EU directive 95/46/EC

**************
.....

peter

Pete, its gotta be said - good work bud

Other areas of interest include the Directives covering the following:

- Children and Consent
- Protection of human Rights
- Equalities

I have a lot of references to these on my main PC; and will be home about teatime today and will post what I can. But pleaes also spend some time Pete, the more info we have the better.

[phormwatch]

Originally Posted by warescouse

Good idea but we should be really be using UML (actors and stakeholders)

I promised myself I would never, ever again use UML after I graduated from Uni.

[bluecar1]

Originally Posted by Privacy_Matters

Pete, its gotta be said - good work bud

Other areas of interest include the Directives covering the following:

- Children and Consent
- Protection of human Rights
- Equalities

I have a lot of references to these on my main PC; and will be home about teatime today and will post what I can. But pleaes also spend some time Pete, the more info we have the better.

do we have space anywhere where we can place EC directive etc and links to them so as to get the full picture on our rights and what regs and rules we believe they have broken and why, if poss cross ref to exact directive, section, paragraph etc

then we need someone to go through and check we have drawn the correct conclusion and place it in a repository so we can sort the wheat from the chaff

i know richard clayton did a fair bit for us in his paper but there has got to be more, as we have many people on here with diferent thought processes and views

much better to be able to quote ec reg xyz section one, para 4 rather than just ec reg xyz this would look much more professional and organised, the only issue is do we hide it from public view to keep our cards covered or lay them on the table for all to see, including BT and phorm?

peter

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by bluecar1

do we have space anywhere where we can place EC directive etc and links to them so as to get the full picture on our rights and what regs and rules we believe they have broken and why, if poss cross ref to exact directive, section, paragraph etc

then we need someone to go through and check we have drawn the correct conclusion and place it in a repository so we can sort the wheat from the chaff

i know richard clayton did a fair bit for us in his paper but there has got to be more, as we have many people on here with diferent thought processes and views

much better to be able to quote ec reg xyz section one, para 4 rather than just ec reg xyz this would look much more professional and organised, the only issue is do we hide it from public view to keep our cards covered or lay them on the table for all to see, including BT and phorm?

peter

There is a section for technical and legal papers on the NoDPI Phorm forum.

Alexander Hanff

[bluecar1]

next bit

********
Article 20 Prior checking
1:- Member States shall determine the processing operations likely to present specific risks to the rights and freedoms of data subjects and shall check that these processing operations are examined prior to the start thereof. (that just about blows trial out the water)

2:- Such prior checks shall be carried out by the supervisory authority following receipt of a notification from the controller or by the data protection official(now when did BT talk to ICO first???), who, in cases of doubt, must consult the supervisory authority.

3:- Member States may also carry out such checks in the context of preparation either of a measure of the national parliament or of a measure based on such a legislative measure, which define the nature of the processing and lay down appropriate safeguards( hmm that sounds like something the ICO should have done)
************

oh well time for sleep, got to be up just after 6

peter

[ilago]

Originally Posted by Digbert

I have feeling you may be right. A quick look through Phorm's financial reports paints a picture of a company spending nearly 4 years development on an ever changing system that doesn't work.

Here are a few extracts (my italics):-

2004 Final Results

We have also invested, in the latter part of 2004 and early 2005, in our technologies and particularly the PageSense Javascript application.Our efforts at the start of this year have been to ensure that the application is sufficiently robust and scaleable, ahead of a full commercial launch.

2005 Interim Results

We are making good progress in using the information generated by PageSense Javascript...
We are also close to finalising a partnership agreement with one of the largest ISPs in the US, which we believe will set an important precedent for the deployment of PageSense throughout the ISP market.

2005 Final results

Our PageSense Javascript application analyses the meaning and context of a web page being viewed by a user in real time, allowing us to deliver targeted advertisements to that user.
As at April 2006, we have signed agreements with ten entities to implement our PageSense technology, and have now established relationships with most of the largest US ISPs. A number of the signed partnerships are currently in testing phase, and the full revenue benefits are expected to flow during 2006.

I have to wonder about some of that

To the best of my knowledge for this period, they were still 121Media and they were still stealth installing ContextPlus and the Apropos rootkit. I was removing those infections from systems into 2006.

So they used the income earned from a despicable technological means of forced installation and forced advertising to develop an even more despicable technological means of serving advertising.

[bluecar1]

Originally Posted by ilago

I have to wonder about some of that

To the best of my knowledge for this period, they were still 121Media and they were still stealth installing ContextPlus and the Apropos rootkit. I was removing those infections from systems into 2006.

So they used the income earned from a despicable technological means of forced installation and forced advertising to develop an even more despicable technological means of serving advertising.

2005 Interim Results

We are making good progress in using the information generated by PageSense Javascript...
We are also close to finalising a partnership agreement with one of the largest ISPs in the US, which we believe will set an important precedent for the deployment of PageSense throughout the ISP market.

what happen to that relationship??? who were they??? why did it not go ahead???

peter