*ALL* ntl Cap Discussion Here Please. - Page 76

Nemesis · 10-03-2005, 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydog

You may not realise this but Suse and other Linux producers make little or no money from their releases. (Suse do charge for some; others like Ubuntu are totally free). Bandwidth costs them a lot of money, so one way of helping Linux devs is to distribute their distros via p2p.

The Linux sites themselves ask people to use bittorrent and to leave their client running afterwards as it 'saves us money'. It is called giving back to the Linux community, rather than just taking.

Neil, I know you think you are clever but trust me.. you aren't

Your patronising replies get boring very quickly. You refuse to acknowledge there are legal and legitimate reasons for running a p2p client 24/7 and uploading 1gig a day.

I do accept that there may be legal and legitimate reasons for running a p2p client 24/7.

What I don't accept is that you choose to do this from a residential connection that is controlled by an AUP, that you choose to ignore and then complain about when ntl decide to put in place projects to enforce the AUP.

If you choose to do this, legal as it might be, the residential ntl connection is not the transport it should be done over, find a supplier that would accept this type of usage.

I guarantee that should you approach an ISP explaining what it is you want to do, you would be directed towards a business connection, as this is not NORMAL residential behaviour.

dirtydog · 10-03-2005, 13:11

http://www.tlm-project.org/

Quote:

TLMP - Who Are We?

The Linux Mirror Project, TLMP for short, is a site run by two normal people who want to support the distribution of linux to the many thousands of people who download it every day. Our plan is to mirror all the major linux distributions, such as Fedora, Slackware, Debian, Mandrake, Knoppix, and many more, using the BitTorrent protocol to distribute bandwidth effectively among users.

In short terms, we mirror linux distributions, to take the strain off other overloaded mirrors, and to provide mirrors for users, if they have problems downloading from other mirrors, or wish to use BitTorrent because they are on slower connections, such as 56k, and want to be able to resume their download easily.

http://www.slackware.com/torrents/

Quote:

Get your Slackware 10.1 ISOs through BitTorrent here.

Please keep your finished torrent session running as long as possible! We need your help! BitTorrent depends on sharing bandwidth and does not work if there are no seeds (downloaders keeping their client open when download is complete).

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemesis

I do accept that there may be legal and legitimate reasons for running a p2p client 24/7.

Quote:

What I don't accept is that you choose to do this from a residential connection that is controlled by an AUP, that you choose to ignore and then complain about when ntl decide to put in place projects to enforce the AUP.

If you choose to do this, legal as it might be, the residential ntl connection is not the transport it should be done over, find a supplier that would accept this type of usage.

I guarantee that should you approach an ISP explaining what it is you want to do, you would be directed towards a business connection, as this is not NORMAL residential behaviour.

That is a different argument. I have no knowledge of the AUP or that leaving a p2p client uploading 24/7 breaks ntl's rules.. could you possibly point me in the direction of the relevant paragraph that covers it? I know some ISPs don't allow p2p usage but I wasn't aware that ntl was one of them.

DieDieMyDarling · 10-03-2005, 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydog

You may not realise this but Suse and other Linux producers make little or no money from their releases. (Suse do charge for some; others like Ubuntu are totally free). Bandwidth costs them a lot of money, so one way of helping Linux devs is to distribute their distros via p2p.

The Linux sites themselves ask people to use bittorrent and to leave their client running afterwards as it 'saves us money'. It is called giving back to the Linux community, rather than just taking.

Neil, I know you think you are clever but trust me.. you aren't

Your patronising replies get boring very quickly. You refuse to acknowledge there are legal and legitimate reasons for running a p2p client 24/7 and uploading 1gig a day.

To be fair, just because they tell you to do it, doesn't mean you have to. If they told you to make 500 copies and give them out at the local shopping centre would you do that too?

There are good points on both sides, and i think for once ntl have got it right. Most of us can accept that if our useage is affecting other people on our UBR, then it's unfair. I don't want some familiy down the road suffering slow surfing because of me. And also, i don't want to be capped, when there are times i could do my downloading and not affect anyone. I just hope ntl enforce it sensibly. If someone does go over a lot, and affects other people, then i hope ntl will suggest off peak downloading, or find a way around it, rather than just cutting them off, lowering them to 56k etc.

Nemesis · 10-03-2005, 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydog

That is a different argument. I have no knowledge of the AUP or that leaving a p2p client uploading 24/7 breaks ntl's rules.. could you possibly point me in the direction of the relevant paragraph that covers it? I know some ISPs don't allow p2p usage but I wasn't aware that ntl was one of them.

Here

Quote:

2. General Use

As a general principle, you must not use the Services in any way that is unlawful or illegal or in a way that affects the enjoyment of other users of the Services.

Nobody may use the Services, either directly or indirectly:

to transmit, publish, link to, make available or receive any material which is defamatory, offensive, abusive, obscene, indecent, racist, harmful, threatening or menacing; or
in a way that will be a breach of any person's rights, including a breach of confidence, copyright, privacy or any other rights; or
in breach of any instructions we have given you under the Agreement; or
in a way that is associated with a criminal offence; or
in a way that does not conform with the acceptable use or anti-spam policies of any connected networks, the standards of the Advertising Standards Authority, professional publishing standards or any Internet standards; or
to infringe by the use of any domain name, mail box name or otherwise upon the rights of any other person in a trade mark or name whether in statute or common law; or
to send email or any other type of electronic message with the intention or result of affecting the performance or functionality of any computer facilities; or
in excess of "normal use" bandwidth limits set out in this section.*

ntl: home's broadband and dial-up services are intended for normal recreational or educational use by individuals and families and our pricing and network architecture have been designed accordingly. Customers who use the services more heavily than a normal home user will reduce the performance of the network for other customers.

"Normal use" of the service is defined as up to 1 gigabyte downstream of data transfer daily (which equates to approximately 200 music tracks, 650 short videos, 10,000 pictures or around 100 large software programmes downloaded per day).

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and here

Quote:

You must not use third party (i.e. not ntl supplied) software that will sustain your Internet connection when the machine is not in use. In addition you must not use an email program to check for new mail at short intervals, or leave the computer on a self-refreshing web page to avoid automatic disconnection from the Internet.

Neil · 10-03-2005, 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydog

Neil, I know you think you are clever but trust me.. you aren't

So as well as red rep me, you want to insult me too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydog

Your patronising replies get boring very quickly.

And again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydog

You refuse to acknowledge there are legal and legitimate reasons for running a p2p client 24/7 and uploading 1gig a day.

No I don't-what I "refuse to acknowledege" is that anyone can upload & download 1GB of data per day consistantly (& legally) for a month.

dirtydog · 10-03-2005, 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieDieMyDarling

To be fair, just because they tell you to do it, doesn't mean you have to. If they told you to make 500 copies and give them out at the local shopping centre would you do that too?

No because that would take a lot of time and effort

Leaving my client running when I'm in bed or at work is easy. I leave it running 24/7 but when I'm at the PC I throttle the upload speed right down so I still get good performance.

Quote:

There are good points on both sides, and i think for once ntl have got it right. Most of us can accept that if our useage is affecting other people on our UBR, then it's unfair. I don't want some familiy down the road suffering slow surfing because of me.

I entirely agree. Whether my p2p client's 12K/sec upload (which is what I set it to as a maximum) does cause fellow ntl users problems is a moot point though; does it?

Quote:

And also, i don't want to be capped, when there are times i could do my downloading and not affect anyone.

Exactly which is why ntl should (imo) distinguish between heavy usage during the day/evening, and in the early hours of the morning. Much in the same way that electricity is cheaper overnight due to lower demand.

Quote:

I just hope ntl enforce it sensibly. If someone does go over a lot, and affects other people, then i hope ntl will suggest off peak downloading, or find a way around it, rather than just cutting them off, lowering them to 56k etc.

Agreed. I realise I am a heavy user compared to many or even most. But 2GB a day (average) is still a fraction of what I *could* use every day.

Anyway I'm waiting with interest to see what ntl's new rules mean in practice. Maybe nothing will change from before, but I think it will do. They wouldn't (imo) have introduced faster speeds without something to balance it out.
__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

So as well as red rep me, you want to insult me too?

The rep was accurate, as was my comment. Someone seems to have neg-repped me too ;'(

Quote:

And again.

That wasn't an insult, just an observation.

Quote:

No I don't-what I "refuse to acknowledege" is that anyone can upload & download 1GB of data per day consistantly (& legally) for a month.

We agree then, you refuse to acknowledge something which is clearly well within the realms of possibility. I even posted two links (of which there are countless like them) proving my point about distributing Linux via p2p.

Nemesis · 10-03-2005, 13:24

....erm you seem to have ignored my AUP quotes ....

dirtydog · 10-03-2005, 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Here

It doesn't explicitly say not to use p2p, not to max out upload or not to distribute Linux 24/7 though.. it's just the usual vague stuff about not exceeding reasonable usage etc.

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Quote:

and here

That is for dial-up users. Cable users don't need to take measures to avoid their connection being dropped as it's always on.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemesis

....erm you seem to have ignored my AUP quotes ....

Sorry just seen them.

dilli-theclaw · 10-03-2005, 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtydog

Someone seems to have neg-repped me too ;'(

Yes, but it wasn't Neil

dirtydog · 10-03-2005, 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilligaf1701

Yes, but it wasn't Neil

haha well I didn't neg rep him in retaliation, if that's what you're implying

Nemesis · 10-03-2005, 13:32

Quote:

ntl: home's broadband and dial-up services are intended for normal recreational or educational use by individuals and families and our pricing and network architecture have been designed accordingly. Customers who use the services more heavily than a normal home user will reduce the performance of the network for other customers.

"Normal use" of the service is defined as up to 1 gigabyte downstream of data transfer daily (which equates to approximately 200 music tracks, 650 short videos, 10,000 pictures or around 100 large software programmes downloaded per day).

Quote:

It doesn't explicitly say not to use p2p, not to max out upload or not to distribute Linux 24/7 though.. it's just the usual vague stuff about not exceeding reasonable usage etc.

So on the basis it doesn't explicitly mention p2p, linux, or maxing out the connection .... the AUP doesn't apply to you, or just that you choose to ignore it.

The AUP INCLUDES the "Normal Use" definition, and so by so obviously breaking the Normal Usage guidelines, you break the AUP.

ian@huth · 10-03-2005, 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtwn

The fact of the matter that downloading copyrighted material for personal use is NOT illegal in the UK.

Of course it is illegal, very illegal. Just point me to something official that gives you that right. Have a look at http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/indetail/copyinter.htm , http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/en2002/2002en25.htm .

cr80123 · 10-03-2005, 13:44

I think he means it's not against criminal law (unless you try and sell copyrighted material). You cannot be arrested for downloading copyrighted material, the owner of the copyright would have to initiate a civil action against you.

Hans Gruber · 10-03-2005, 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemesis

So on the basis it doesn't explicitly mention p2p, linux, or maxing out the connection .... the AUP doesn't apply to you, or just that you choose to ignore it.

The AUP INCLUDES the "Normal Use" definition, and so by so obviously breaking the Normal Usage guidelines, you break the AUP.

NTL's defintion of "normal" use has no mention of upstream, so by my understanding keeping a torrent of a linux .iso open for other to download from you is not against the AUP.

darkmage46 · 10-03-2005, 14:05

the main thing with all these arguments are that thi or that contravenes the AUP or that this behaviour isn't typical residential user behaviour. Typical use is changing 10 years ago when all that was out there was dial up BBS's a 2800 baud modem was ok and why would you want faster, if you did get your wallet out. Now wit streaming audio and video, huge game demo downloads, P2P, video messaging, voice over internet telephone and all the rest is usage going to go down? nope. wether the net is used for leagal or illegal purposes( and im thinking music and software, nothing more nefarious than that) the internet is going to become a more and more used medium, cable companies should get used to that and realise that any cap is just a stopgap measure to give breathing room. In 10 years time a 3 gig a month cap would be insane on your home 500gig connection and it will still take all day to DL the latest game demo so we'll have a cap of about 3 hours constant full speed use and we'll all still argue about it. If the cable co`s woke up and sacked the bright sparks that think caps have any real purpose and took a more forwards thinking approach like lets create a broadband service that only 1% of our customers can max out and they have to really try to do that then we might be moving forwards at the same pace as the technology thats sat on the desks infront of us