Hamas Israel War

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

That's not correct. I've asked people who have reached a conclusion (Israel's doing wrong) to wind back to zero Palestinian casualties and then what should Israel has done.

Ian has offered woolly, fluffy answers with no anchor in reality.

You've never answered my question. So, I'll ask it again with some added context:

Hamas has invaded Israel and brutally murdered 1200 people in the most barbaric manner. At that point, what should Israel have done given that Hamas hides among the civilian population?

I'm not persisting in playing your games where you casually dismiss clear answers that do not confirm your own view. I and others have explained our clear positions on a number of occasions.

It's today, there's a humanitarian crisis hitting over a million displaced people. Estimates vary between 12,000 and 20,000 dead, mostly women and children. The Palestinian ambassador to the United Nations claims Israel's true ambition is ethnic cleansing, and accused them of enacting genocide among other war crimes. Other opinions are available. However, how many Palestinian civilian deaths do you think are "too many" aspiring to "eliminate" a terrorist organisation of less than 20,000 members?

[Sephiroth]

@jfman

We've reached stalemate, John. Others can judge our exchanges.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

That's not correct. I've asked people who have reached a conclusion (Israel's doing wrong) to wind back to zero Palestinian casualties and then what should Israel has done.

Ian has offered woolly, fluffy answers with no anchor in reality.

You've never answered my question. So, I'll ask it again with some added context:

Hamas has invaded Israel and brutally murdered 1200 people in the most barbaric manner. At that point, what should Israel have done given that Hamas hides among the civilian population?

I don't appreciate the patronising attitude. You seem incapable of rational debate so I think we're done here.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I don't appreciate the patronising attitude.

Haha, you’re priceless, the hypocrisy is strong with one

Originally Posted by ianch99

Don't be such a child.

Originally Posted by ianch99

Only a child would not understand this.

Ooo I don’t appreciate the patronising attitude, who’s acting like a child now?

[jfman]

The United States has vetoed a UN Security Council resolution calling for a ceasefire and the immediate, unconditional release of all hostages. 13 members voted in favour of a ceasefire. The United Kingdom abstained.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

The United States has vetoed a UN Security Council resolution on a ceasefire. 13 members voted in favour of a ceasefire. The United Kingdom abstained.

Just seen that flash up on my device, so haven’t read any detail.

That said, a UN resolution is meaningless in a practical sense.

Israeli is free to ignore it.

The UN is a joke and should probably be dissolved, if Russia can sit as a permanent member of the security council, whilst destabilising security in Europe and the wider world. Why would you take any notice of the UN?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

The United States has vetoed a UN Security Council resolution calling for a ceasefire and the immediate, unconditional release of all hostages. 13 members voted in favour of a ceasefire. The United Kingdom abstained.

Disappointing. When push came to shove, Biden bottled it.

In other news

Palestinian Authority and US work up postwar plan for Gaza

Palestinian premier Mohammad Shtayyeh favours junior role for Hamas in future state-building efforts

The Palestinian Authority is working with US officials on a plan to run Gaza once the war between Israel and Hamas is over, the Palestinian Prime Minister Mohammad Shtayyeh has said.

Shtayyeh said he did not think Israel could destroy Hamas and that his preferred solution was for Hamas to become a junior partner in the umbrella Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) and help build an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.

“If [Hamas] are ready to come to an agreement and accept the political platform of the PLO, then there will be room for talk. Palestinians should not be divided,” Shtayyeh said in an interview with Bloomberg.

“We need to put together a mechanism, something we’re working on with the international community. There will be huge needs in terms of relief and reconstruction to remedy the wounds.”

US officials have been pushing for the PA, which exercises limited self-rule in parts of the occupied West Bank and also ruled Gaza until it was driven out by Hamas in 2007, to play a key role in governing postwar Gaza, and have floated the idea of an international force helping to manage security in the enclave for an interim period.

However, Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has rejected the idea of the PA being involved in Gaza’s postwar governance, and ruled out accepting an international peacekeeping force in the enclave, insisting only Israeli forces could ensure his country’s security.

https://www.ft.com/content/5d7c4c62-...8-97ad8591b7a3

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Just seen that flash up on my device, so haven’t read any detail.

That said, a UN resolution is meaningless in a practical sense.

Israeli is free to ignore it.

The UN is a joke and should probably be dissolved, if Russia can sit as a permanent member of the security council, whilst destabilising security in Europe and the wider world. Why would you take any notice of the UN?

Likewise America has been in one war or another since its inception destabilising Governments in countries on almost every continent (including democratically elected ones in Europe).

I agree it’s of limited meaning or value, but it shows that the Israeli position is increasing isolated on the world stage, and in all probability reduces the time that the United States are likely to continue to permit their ongoing military crusade in the absence of any clear, achievable and defined goals.

---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Disappointing. When push came to shove, Biden bottled it.

In other news

https://www.ft.com/content/5d7c4c62-...8-97ad8591b7a3

The message is out there to all the emerging economies of the Middle East, North Africa and the global south. China and Russia will be rubbing their hands at the soft power opportunities going forward.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

Likewise America has been in one war or another since its inception destabilising Governments in countries on almost every continent (including democratically elected ones in Europe).

I agree it’s of limited meaning or value, but it shows that the Israeli position is increasing isolated on the world stage, and in all probability reduces the time that the United States are likely to continue to permit their ongoing military crusade in the absence of any clear, achievable and defined goals.

---------- Post added at 21:17 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------



The message is out there to all the emerging economies of the Middle East, North Africa and the global south. China and Russia will be rubbing their hands at the soft power opportunities going forward.

Exactly. And where's Putin been recently?

Putin makes rare trip to Middle East to meet with UAE and Saudi leaders

[jfman]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Exactly. And where's Putin been recently?

Putin makes rare trip to Middle East to meet with UAE and Saudi leaders

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...gaza-ceasefire

This part made me laugh:

The US for its part is furious that Guterres raised the crisis in such a dramatic fashion, and feel he has played into the hands of Russia and China by damaging US standing with the so-called global south.

Perhaps America would improve it’s standing in the global south by not adopting a policy that, at face value, could be easily portrayed by it’s enemies as valuing the lives of Jews in Israel above Muslims in Palestine.

Russia can, unfortunately, easily draw parallels with the situation in Ukraine and point out that America is no arbiter of moral fairness. If, and it remains an if at this point, the USA sell out Ukraine as a price worth paying for their military industrial complex to redirect resources into the Middle East that will cause further friction.

It’d be inevitable European countries will ask themselves if the price that they have paid economically to support a cause America dropped on a whim was worth it.

I dread to think the potential consequences for politics in European countries with sizeable Muslim minorities or Ukrainian refugees.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Another swerve from you.

Had Hamas carried out a different type of attack, with no barbarity, might not Israel's retaliation have been different and of lower consequences for the Gazan population.

My 'enough is enough' observation is spot on.

Another swerve, coming from the guy who still hasn't answered Russ' question at aprox the 300th time of asking and the reason you can't answer his question is because you don't know what you're talking about, much like here if you think your observation is spot on, my observation is people don't think you're up to discussing this like an adult and therefore have stopped engaging with you on it, I think I'll join them

[Sephiroth]

The notion that Hamas should be a junior partner in the umbrella organisation of the PLO is strange, particularly as the PLO Premier is talking about 'state building'. I note that this isn't a stated view from the US side.

Israel will remain the occupying power and they will not (imo) countenance any role for Hamas. In particular, it is possible that Israel will not have eliminated Hamas at the eventual ceasefire point.

Also, seeing that Iran is Hamas' puppet master, this dimension will play into Israel's decisions on the governance of Gaza.

However, there is more from a non-paywalled source with in depth analysis. The Palestinian PM makes a valid point, seen from here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-plan-for-gaza

Asked why Israel can’t eliminate Hamas, Shtayyeh said: “Hamas is in Lebanon, everybody knows Hamas leadership is in Qatar and they are here in the West Bank.”

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Israel will remain the occupying power

And if they don’t adhere to their responsibilties remain a legitimate military target for the Palestinian people in which ever form they decide to mobilise.

I’m sure when that inevitably means Israeli civilian casualties the forum will coalesce around the established position of “war, innit?”.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Israel will remain the occupying power

Israel is not an occupying power.

The West Bank issue aside, and I don’t agree with Israel’s actions there.

Other than that, Israel does not occupy anyone.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Israel is not an occupying power.

The West Bank issue aside, and I don’t agree with Israel’s actions there.

Other than that, Israel does not occupy anyone.

That's Israel's claim.

The USA says otherwise:

https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-r...d-territories/

The Occupied Territories, which include the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, are subject to the jurisdiction of Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA), with the division of responsibilities overlapping in much of the territory.