[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Evening Twaddle, so glad you could join us

Wasn't telling anyone to 'shut up'. Just pointing out that I don't think anybodies view on this thread has changed, so little point just agreeing with those you want to and ignoring those you don't, which many seem to be doing.

My view has changed several times and am currently undecided, still annoyed with Dave and his lies but not furious enough to let it make my mind up unlike a few days ago. I've still not heard a convincing argument from either camp.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Damien

If the border controls can't cope now then how will they cope when the queues get longer with the removal of the EEA gates? As you said they struggle to deal with the amount of people coming to passport control as it is so taking longer on each passenger would make things worse.

Also aren't the EU gates there because we know these people don't need travel visas? They still check the passports, they still put them in the scanner thing if it's a modern one but they just don't have to check any visa requirements.

What would we do differently there or are we going to require additional checks/visas on people coming from Europe? If so then that could hurt tourism and we would get the same treatment on the way to Europe which would be a massive pain.

Is there even any evidence that EU citizens are the problem with the border controls?

No one said they couldn't cope now but with what is being said they would be checked at both sides of the Channel because of our agreement with the French.

---------- Post added at 07:11 ---------- Previous post was at 06:57 ----------

Originally Posted by tweedle

Typical lefty, if you don't believe what I say you're set in your views/ways so you need "shutting up". Leftys do not understand the world today, it's alien to them. They still think it's 1970. They still think they can stop nuclear weapons even though everyone has them.

Ever thought about a job with Amway? Although look out for time wasters (people you couldn't convince) or any other ponzie scheme.

Oh dear typical of someone who can't answer a point. I am, and always have been a 'Leftie' as you so delicately put it. Not everyone has nuclear weapons and as far as I'm aware only 2 countries in the EU have them, the UK and France.

According to a new report from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), nine nations — the United States, Russia, United Kingdom, France, China, India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea — possess approximately 16,300 nuclear weapons. in total.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nine-...as-2014-6?IR=T So, no not everyone has them.

If you are going to make statements like this please check facts first.


Secondly, there is a common myth among Inners that being in the EU has kept peace for 60 years. The truth is that nuclear weapons, love them or hate them, have kept the peace. I'm not a fan of nuclear weapons myself.

[Big Brian]

Reasons why we should Leave the EU:

IMMIGRATION

Britain can never control immigration until it leaves the European Union, because freedom of movement gives other EU citizens an automatic right to live here.

The Remain Campaign would have us believe the Jungle would move to Dover. Our Agreement with France has nothing to do with the EU. The French have said this agreement would not be effected by a Brexit.

CRIME

The European Arrest Warrant allows British citizens to be sent abroad and charged for crimes in foreign courts, often for minor offences. Exit would stop this.

Though this is a good point for remaining it's nothing that can't be kept or renegotiated after a Brexit.

TRADE

Britain’s links with the EU are holding back its focus on emerging markets – there is no major trade deal with China or India, for example. Leaving would allow the UK to diversify its international links.

The In Campaign would have us believe we won't get a deal that suits us with the EU. Why not? How do they know?


LAW

Too many of Britain’s laws are made overseas by dictates passed down from Brussels and rulings upheld by the European Court of Justice. UK courts must become sovereign again and make our own laws.

JOBS

The danger to jobs has been over-exaggerated. By incentivising investment through low corporation tax and other perks Britain can flourish like the Scandinavian countries outside the EU.

The Remain Campaign say a Brexit could cost 3 million Jobs. Again, how do they know this? Do they have a crystal ball or are doing as they did in the Scottish Independence Referendum and being told by Downing Street like the big boss's were that they must make sure they won't leave?

vOICE

Britain does not need the EU to prosper internationally. By re-engaging with the Commonwealth the UK can have just as much clout as it does from inside the EU.

The Remain Campaign tell us our voice would be much smaller and no one would listen to a small island. Again I have to ask Why not? We have already proven what we can achieve on the world stage so why wouldn't they listen to us?

[heero_yuy]

The PM programme on R4 has been running a Q & A piece each day with specialist correspondents answering questions on the EU membership and the consequences of a leave vote sent in by listeners. It seems very well balanced IMHO (Surprising for the Beeb) and at least gives some sensible answers.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

The PM programme on R4 has been running a Q & A piece each day with specialist correspondents answering questions on the EU membership and the consequences of a leave vote sent in by listeners. It seems very well balanced IMHO (Surprising for the Beeb) and at least gives some sensible answers.

Don't listen to radio much these days but it's hard to find a balanced view on the net.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Osem

I still can't understand why the powers that be didn't give every country the right to put a ceiling on migration. Quite why they feel it ought to be a fundamental right for, in theory, millions of people to be able to decide to move to another country is beyond me.

Because it's part of the process of working towards a one world government...

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Because it's part of the process of working towards a one world government...

It's either that or sheer lunacy...

[Bircho]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Reasons why we should Leave the EU:

IMMIGRATION

Britain can never control immigration until it leaves the European Union, because freedom of movement gives other EU citizens an automatic right to live here.
And gives out citizens the right to live aboard. Approx 1 million British citizens live in Spain alone. What will happen to them?

The Remain Campaign would have us believe the Jungle would move to Dover. Our Agreement with France has nothing to do with the EU. The French have said this agreement would not be effected by a Brexit. What is to stop the French saying we do not want to support the camp any more? Is that definite or an assumption on your part? We know what assume stands for.

CRIME

The European Arrest Warrant allows British citizens to be sent abroad and charged for crimes in foreign courts, often for minor offences. Exit would stop this.

Though this is a good point for remaining it's nothing that can't be kept or renegotiated after a Brexit.
Or us deporting other EC citizens in this country who commit minor crimes?

TRADE

Britain’s links with the EU are holding back its focus on emerging markets – there is no major trade deal with China or India, for example. Leaving would allow the UK to diversify its international links.

The In Campaign would have us believe we won't get a deal that suits us with the EU. Why not? How do they know?
45% of our exports are to the EU. 8% of EU exports are to the UK. Who will have the stronger hand in the negotiations? That 8% accounts for 55% of our imports btw


LAW

Too many of Britain’s laws are made overseas by dictates passed down from Brussels and rulings upheld by the European Court of Justice. UK courts must become sovereign again and make our own laws.
Name one Law that the EU has introduced that has had a negative impact on YOUR life. I give you a positive one to start with, the European Working Time Directive. That would never have been introduced into this country if it wasn't for the EU (both the Conservative government at the time, supported by Labour, opposed it and even took the EU to court to stop it)

JOBS

The danger to jobs has been over-exaggerated. By incentivising investment through low corporation tax and other perks Britain can flourish like the Scandinavian countries outside the EU.
How can you potentially lose 45% of your exports and jobs not be affected. Get real.

The Remain Campaign say a Brexit could cost 3 million Jobs. Again, how do they know this? Do they have a crystal ball or are doing as they did in the Scottish Independence Referendum and being told by Downing Street like the big boss's were that they must make sure they won't leave?

vOICE

Britain does not need the EU to prosper internationally. By re-engaging with the Commonwealth the UK can have just as much clout as it does from inside the EU. Again get real You complain about immigration and then want to re-engage with the nations that you probably don't want to deal with.

The Remain Campaign tell us our voice would be much smaller and no one would listen to a small island. Again I have to ask Why not? We have already proven what we can achieve on the world stage so why wouldn't they listen to us?

Sorted for you.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Bircho

Sorted for you.

Without a doubt. In 1975 we all predicted what would happen with the EU. Common Market indeed! United States of Europe more like. Mass immigration. That's happening too. Loss of sovereignty to Brussels. Being ruled economically by Germany. Sound Familiar? Hey but they wouldn't listen so why will they listen now? Think the vote was 2/1 if memory serves. will be a lot closer this time though. And if it goes against Leave, what about the 49% who vote Leave? It's a very sizable minority if it turns out that way?

[Bircho]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Without a doubt. In 1975 we all predicted what would happen with the EU. Common Market indeed! United States of Europe more like. Mass immigration. That's happening too. Loss of sovereignty to Brussels. Being ruled economically by Germany. Sound Familiar? Hey but they wouldn't listen so why will they listen now? Think the vote was 2/1 if memory serves. will be a lot closer this time though. And if it goes against Leave, what about the 49% who vote Leave? It's a very sizable minority if it turns out that way?

Thats democracy for you. In the 1950s there was over half a million people came into this country from the Caribbean alone. Before that it was estimated that there were just 20,000 foreign nationals living in the UK. That was about 20 years before we joined the EU. And along came Enoch Powell and warned us......

Let's go back to the pre-1950s shall we. It was ever so peaceful, with continuous hot sunny days, running in the meadows picking flowers. We never used to have any wars, bomb shelters, rationing. Or to the 70's where we never used to have blackouts, unemployment or cold wars. It was all so much better then. This EU has got a lot to answer for.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Bircho

Let's go back to the pre-1950s shall we. It was ever so peaceful, with continuous hot sunny days, running in the meadows picking flowers. We never used to have any wars, bomb shelters, rationing.

Tell that to the Bosnians and the Crimeans

Or to the 70's where we never used to have blackouts, unemployment or cold wars. It was all so much better then. This EU has got a lot to answer for.

I seem to remember Thatcher ending the first two and Lech Walesa having a big hand in the third.
.......but feel free to credit the EU with all that

Originally Posted by Bircho

And gives out citizens the right to live aboard. Approx 1 million British citizens live in Spain alone. What will happen to them?

What is to stop the French saying we do not want to support the camp any more? Is that definite or an assumption on your part? We know what assume stands for.


Or us deporting other EC citizens in this country who commit minor crimes?


45% of our exports are to the EU. 8% of EU exports are to the UK. Who will have the stronger hand in the negotiations? That 8% accounts for 55% of our imports btw

Name one Law that the EU has introduced that has had a negative impact on YOUR life. I give you a positive one to start with, the European Working Time Directive. That would never have been introduced into this country if it wasn't for the EU (both the Conservative government at the time, supported by Labour, opposed it and even took the EU to court to stop it)

How can you potentially lose 45% of your exports and jobs not be affected. Get real.

Again get real You complain about immigration and then want to re-engage with the nations that you probably don't want to deal with.

Where to start, where to start ...

1. Plenty of Brits lived in Spain prior to 1973. Plenty of Brits live happily in countries all over the world who are not members of the EU. This is so far from being any kind of a problem, it's laughable that any Remainer would even bring it up. Makes you wonder whether even they know they're clutching at straws.

2. Border control arrangements between the UK and France are a bilateral arrangement and are nothing to do with the EU. Regardless of what any middle-ranking French politician may say, there is no legal, technical reason for that agreement to change should the UK exit the EU.

3. The European Arrest Warrant does not make it any easier or harder for us to deport anyone. On the other hand, our membership of the EU *does* make it rather harder for us to permanently exclude any EU citizen from our territory.

4. That's a pretty naff attempt at using percentages to mask the truth. Here's a more prescient statistic for you. The UK imports around €90 billion from Germany each year. It exports about €40 billion of goods to Germany. The UK is Germany's third-biggest export destination after the USA and France. Angela Merkel, BMW and VW are not going to allow trade barriers to upset that.

5. The European food hygiene regulations affected every small B&B in Britain. Previously it was only necessary to register as a food business and submit to inspection if your establishment was beyond a certain size; now, even if you only operate two rooms, for six months of the year, you have to register and your local council has to bear the expense of inspecting you. This entirely disproportionate rule, which superseded UK regulations that were far more reasonable, affects me, as an operator of a small B&B, and every user of a food business in my local authority area when the inspector is wasting his time in my family kitchen instead of in the back room of any other food establishment (such as a chippy or chinese takeaway) where there are exponentially more customers in any given week. How's that for starters?

6. This is not going to happen - get real.

7. The point is to re-gain control of immigration policy. Once we achieve that, we can allow people in according to the needs of our economy.

[Bircho]

Originally Posted by Chris

Where to start, where to start ...

1. Plenty of Brits lived in Spain prior to 1973. Plenty of Brits live happily in countries all over the world who are not members of the EU. This is so far from being any kind of a problem, it's laughable that any Remainer would even bring it up. Makes you wonder whether even they know they're clutching at straws. Actually not true. At time, Spain was still under the Franco regime. I will give you a fact. If you own a property in Spain and rent it out (around 200,000 Brits do this), then you can currently deduct all the running costs including mortgage interest and you pay 19% tax on the rest. Those who own from outside the EU, have to pay 22% tax on all income. One immediate impact. Will the Brits sell the properties? Possibly? Will it make holidays more expensive? More than likely.

2. Border control arrangements between the UK and France are a bilateral arrangement and are nothing to do with the EU. Regardless of what any middle-ranking French politician may say, there is no legal, technical reason for that agreement to change should the UK exit the EU. Again I ask. Do you know that for definite?

3. The European Arrest Warrant does not make it any easier or harder for us to deport anyone. On the other hand, our membership of the EU *does* make it rather harder for us to permanently exclude any EU citizen from our territory. Accepted. But do the benefits outweigh the disadvantages

4. That's a pretty naff attempt at using percentages to mask the truth. Here's a more prescient statistic for you. The UK imports around €90 billion from Germany each year. It exports about €40 billion of goods to Germany. The UK is Germany's third-biggest export destination after the USA and France. Angela Merkel, BMW and VW are not going to allow trade barriers to upset that. Actually my facts are true. Just to put your figures into perspective, that €90 billion in 2015 was actually €89.3 billion (love the rounding) against total exports of €1,196 billion - or 7.4% of German exports. I'll stick with my original point that we are better off in the world's biggest free trade union than out of it.

5. The European food hygiene regulations affected every small B&B in Britain. Previously it was only necessary to register as a food business and submit to inspection if your establishment was beyond a certain size; now, even if you only operate two rooms, for six months of the year, you have to register and your local council has to bear the expense of inspecting you. This entirely disproportionate rule, which superseded UK regulations that were far more reasonable, affects me, as an operator of a small B&B, and every user of a food business in my local authority area when the inspector is wasting his time in my family kitchen instead of in the back room of any other food establishment (such as a chippy or chinese takeaway) where there are exponentially more customers in any given week. How's that for starters? So as a consumer who may visit your premises, it is a bad thing that I know that you do not have rats running around your kitchens?

6. This is not going to happen - get real.Of course they will still want to trade with UK. But at what cost to us. Again I say, who will have the stronger negotiating hand when it comes to bargaining times. Ant the EU love to do that - and it takes them forever as we know. How long before we enter a trade deal with them? 1 year, 2 years, 10 years? You tell me.

7. The point is to re-gain control of immigration policy. Once we achieve that, we can allow people in according to the needs of our economy. Leaving the EU will not make on iota of a difference on immigration policy.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Bircho

Thats democracy for you. In the 1950s there was over half a million people came into this country from the Caribbean alone. Before that it was estimated that there were just 20,000 foreign nationals living in the UK. That was about 20 years before we joined the EU. And along came Enoch Powell and warned us......

Let's go back to the pre-1950s shall we. It was ever so peaceful, with continuous hot sunny days, running in the meadows picking flowers. We never used to have any wars, bomb shelters, rationing. Or to the 70's where we never used to have blackouts, unemployment or cold wars. It was all so much better then. This EU has got a lot to answer for.

Those immigrants were brought in by Labour to fill the jobs our people wouldn't do. If any one is to blame it's them.

Never in my life have I read so much drivel! The 50's and 60 were good years. Even McMillan himself said we never had it so good. It wasn't until Wilson really that things started to go down the gurgler. Oh his first term was ok but from '68 it was all downhill. Again you have them to blame for the treatment of the Workforce at the time. We had no choice but to strike for better conditions and pay. This has sod all to do with the EU though so don't know why you even mention it. I suggest you research why the '70s happened and why these immigrants were brought in then come back and see if you write the same drivel.

[Osem]

It does make me laugh that some folks seem to cite past and current problems the UK faces as reasons to do nothing about the huge new issues affecting us. Yes we have plenty of home made problems and have made big mistakes in the past but that isn't a reason for not trying to tackle the worst effects of the problems being created for us either directly or indirectly as a result of our EU membership. If we feel our govt. isn't performing we can do something decisive about it. If we feel the EU is imposing unnecessary or unwarranted rules upon us we can do precious little as has been proved time and time again ever since we joined. I can't understand why anyone would rather be increasingly ruled by faceless suits in Brussels than by those who are directly accountable to us.