Eurozone will collapse...

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Chris

The problem is not the fairness of a quid quo pro - it's the precise nature of it. They are proposing an arbitrary expropriation of the private wealth of citizens. As someone observed earlier, that is an utterly outrageous course of action anywhere except within a Communist State.

The first $100,000 of any private individual's bank savings are supposed to be absolutely guaranteed safe against the risk of a bank going bust, yet here the EU is proposing to take away up to 10% of those savings as part of the deal to prevent the bank going bust. It is perverse in the extreme.

What sort of precedent will this sort of thing set? Basically rules are only rules when the Eurocrats decide they are...

Originally Posted by Chris

The problem is not the fairness In principle of a quid quo pro imposed on the Cypriot State - it's the precise nature of it. They are proposing an arbitrary expropriation of the private wealth of citizens. As someone observed earlier, that is an utterly outrageous course of action anywhere except within a Communist State.

I agree it's outrageous and frankly stupid. Yet I don't think it's any kind of machiavellian scheme from Germany to control Europe, I think it's just a misguided attempt to soften their own contributions and to be seen to be responsible to their own voters. Germany's interest in these matters is not some World War 2 revivalism to control Europe by money instead of force but an attempt to limit damage to their own economy. I doubt Germany would give much of a toss about Cyprus if it posed no danger to them. It's the portray of Germany that bothers me.

Originally Posted by Osem

What sort of precedent will this sort of thing set? Basically rules are only rules when the Eurocrats decide they are...

The precedent is that the private wealth of any individual within the European Union can be expropriated provided the European Union decides the situation justifies it.

This situation is grave in the extreme. No doubt most people will just shrug and accept it as the new normal and then get on with their lives. One day they will wake up and realise that the EU has become a monster that owns them and everything they call "theirs" - by then, of course, it will be too late.

Originally Posted by Osem

What sort of precedent will this sort of thing set? Basically rules are only rules when the Eurocrats decide they are...

And when it passes the Cypriot Parliament. The Government of the member state still has to approve it. You may say that they are left with little choice but to accept, much like someone in debt would have to accept the unfair terms of a loan shark, but that's a situation they found themselves in. They're still free to face the consequences of running out of money however. What they cannot have is the bailout with no strings attached.

Hopefully people will see sense and they come back with a more rational set of conditions.

Originally Posted by Damien

I agree it's outrageous and frankly stupid. Yet I don't think it's any kind of machiavellian scheme from Germany to control Europe, I think it's just a misguided attempt to soften their own contributions and to be seen to be responsible to their own voters. Germany's interest in these matters is not some World War 2 revivalism to control Europe by money instead of force but an attempt to limit damage to their own economy. I doubt Germany would give much of a toss about Cyprus if it posed no danger to them. It's the portray of Germany that bothers me.

Who said anything about German revivalism? Not me. So far as Germany goes, this is Angela Merkel's strategy to avoid getting booted from office later this year. This is nothing to do with Germany wanting to take over Europe.

Standing behind the creditor states however is a Brussles-based policy elite that sees everything through the prism of The Project, the aggregation of power to the EU itself at the expense of all the member states. They will be absolutely rubbing their hands at this newfound ability to dip their hands into the private savings of private individuals within one member state.

Is it remotely coincidental that they are trying this on through what would appear to be the path of least resistance, a tiny island with a population of les than a million? Can you imagine if they had tried this on in Spain, or even in Ireland? Even Greece didn't get this treatment. No; they are happy to set the precedent in a place they know amounts to very little in the world.

The only possible saving grace here is that they may have over-reached themselves and misjudged the size of the backlash. We can hope.

Originally Posted by Chris

Who said anything about German revivalism? Not me. So far as Germany goes, this is Angela Merkel's strategy to avoid getting booted from office later this year. This is nothing to do with Germany wanting to take over Europe.

I agree.

Is it remotely coincidental that they are trying this on through what would appear to be the path of least resistance, a tiny island with a population of les than a million? Can you imagine if they had tried this on in Spain, or even in Ireland? No; they are happy to set the precedent in a place they know amounts to very little in the world.

Yes. It's also because they don't have as much at risk as they do with Spain, Ireland or Greece. In the scheme of things Cyprus needs them more than they need Cyprus and this is reflected in their terms. They don't want to risk too much politically on a bailout whose failure would not led to the same consequences that the others would have caused. Also because it seems they basically think it's taking money from Russia.

The only possible saving grace here is that they may have over-reached themselves and misjudged the size of the backlash. We can hope.

I think they're probably locked in discussions to find an alternative now. Hopefully.

[Osem]

Chris is 100% right!

The Eurocrats will dress these things up in any way they can to try to assuage public anger but the result will be the same - creeping control in the singleminded pursuit of their agenda to create a single state in which what they say goes and rules are to be obeyed when it suits.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Chris

The only possible saving grace here is that they may have over-reached themselves and misjudged the size of the backlash. We can hope.

I am hoping that the President in Cyprus decides to grow a pair and say SOD IT lets pull out of the Euro and go without the bailout.

Somehow i don't think that will happen because the EU leadership don't want it to happen WHY. because If it happens the deck of cards will start to fall very quickly.

Infact the deck of cards may well and trully tumble

http://news.sky.com/story/1066004/cy...d-russia-offer

Cyprus has ordered its banks to stay shut until Thursday as the government seeks to alter the terms of a controversial EU bailout that taxes savings.

The uncertainty comes as Russia's finance minister said his country would consider restructuring its loans to Cyprus.

Russian energy giant Gazprom has also reportedly offered financial assistance to Cyprus in exchange for access to the island's gas reserves.

Eurozone countries across the region have seen markets shudder as a result of the weekend bailout offer, which includes a one-off tax on bank deposits, with many losing more than 2% and the FTSE dropping 1.6%.

Depositors in the eurozone's weaker economies have been unnerved by the levy, with investors fearing it will set a precedent that could reignite market turmoil.

Let battle commence

[Osem]

"a one off tax on bank deposits.."

Yeah right! What makes me think that, if it goes through, it'll be a 'one off' whenever they need one...

This may be killed off as early as tonight and more sensible terms agreed by the looks of it.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Osem

Yeah right! What makes me think that, if it goes through, it'll be a 'one off' whenever they need one...

That is my fear, can you imagine if Labour had tried this near the end of there term when they had spent everything

Originally Posted by Osem

Yeah right! What makes me think that, if it goes through, it'll be a 'one off' whenever they need one...

It would still need to be passed by the nation state's Government. I can't think why they would allow such a prospect unless they were desperate. The EU certainly can't just take money whenever they want. Nations that allow this will find their financial services industry killed off pretty quickly after enacting such a policy after all.

[Osem]

For now it would but how long before that 'right' of determination heads to Brussells like so many others if the Eurocrats decide that's what they want in order to keep their show on the road?

The trouble with moving goalposts is that sooner or later ordinary people start to realise that nothing is sacred anymore, nothing is guaranteed, nothing can be banked upon (pun intended) and then say no more! When that starts happening on a large scale are the Eurocrats going to accept it? The don't like 'No' votes do they? What were emergency, 'one off', measures can suddenly become tools of control used against those who've had enough of the EU and what it's become.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Osem

For now it would but how long before that 'right' of determination heads to Brussels like so many others if the Eurocrats decide that's what they want in order to keep their show on the road?

The trouble with moving goalposts is that sooner or later ordinary people start to realise that nothing is sacred anymore, nothing is guaranteed, nothing can be banked upon (pun intended) and then say no more! When that starts happening on a large scale are the Eurocrats going to accept it? The don't like 'No' votes do they? What were emergency, 'one off', measures can suddenly become tools of control used against those who've had enough of the EU and what it's become.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21832187

After this is over no matter what the EU leader sorry i mean German Spokesman say's i would not like to be a German on Holiday in Cyprus.

German government spokesman Steffen Seibert echoed Mr Asmussen, saying: "How the country makes its contribution, how it makes the payments, is up to the Cyprus government."

Protesters in Cyprus have held up banners blaming Germany for the controversial bailout deal.

However, German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble insisted he and the International Monetary Fund had been in favour of "respecting a deposit guarantee for accounts up to 100,000" euros.

He said it was the Cypriot government, the European Commission and the European Central Bank that had decided on the levy terms and that "they now must explain this to the Cypriot people".

Speaker Yiannakis Omirou, of the EDEK party, said: "Parliament is called to legalise a decision to rob depositors blind, against every written and unwritten law. We refuse to subscribe to this."

The more i read about this the more i am determined that if we ever get the chance of a yes no vote i will vote to leave the EU

Originally Posted by Sirius

After this is over no matter what the EU leader sorry i mean German Spokesman say's i would not like to be a German on Holiday in Cyprus.

Yes, Cyprus should pay something themselves to the bailout. I can see why they are angry that Germany aren't just paying the whole thing themselves.