Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[dav]

The TT/CPW statement of how they are going to implement this is the most sensible thing any of the ISP's concerned have said on the matter. This is the ONLY way to implement it. If we have to have it, this HAS to be the way.
No ifs, no buts. Opt-in only. Drop the spin. Tell the truth. Are you listening VM?

(I suspect not. I have a mental image of VM execs with their fingers in their ears shouting, "LaLaLaLaLaLa")

[isf]

Originally Posted by ~$ su

For a long time there have been companies and organisations monitoring personal data in some way, and every time it gets a similar response - some more hysterical than others (the quote).

Sorry, that's simply not true. I can block access to cookies and other tracking methods (images). Firefox for example allows some control over this with the ability to disallow 3rd party cookies and images. I was using the hosts file to block certain domains (doubleclick) a decade ago. The user is firmly in control of the web experience.

The 2gb of data AOL lost - the email monitoring ads of google mail - etc. etc.

Both of which are opt-in.

I just think it'd be better to be reasonable. Find ways around it. Help each other. Stop being the baying crowd waiting for the riot.

I find it amusing that you appear here with your non-sequiturs and plead for reason. There is a reasonable way around the phorm issue, opt-in at the network layer. That's what TT/CPW are proposing and nobody has a problem with it.

[Florence]

If phorm goes ahead I can see all adverts that are not on the OIX platform being blocked reducing the customers selection. Reading between the lines if you visit a website that has adverts these will be stripped and oix adverts inserted.

To click on opt oput I have been informed spamms you like a xmas tree!


Think about these questions.

1
would you put a pedophile in charge of a primary school if not why not?

2 would you then put a spammer/spyware/adware person incharge of monitoring/collecting information about customers?

If no why no


Could you trust him in those positions.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by brundles

What that doesn't say is whether people are opting in to "relevant adverts" or opting in to the "all your browsing belong to us" scheme. My money is on the former of those with the latter being a given to all customers.

CPW say that they are working on a way for any users who haven't opted in to have their data routed around Phorm's equipment rather than through it.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...hares_plummet/

[dav]

I disagree, Florence. A website has to specifically partner itself with Phorm and insert the tags for Phorms ads. If, when the page is sent to you, a Phorm tracking cookie is detected then they will paste in a targeted ad. If no cookie/opt out cookie is detected you'll get a random, un targeted ad. So far, so ignorable. Phorm ads won't be injected to websites that are not in bed with Kent.

What really gets my goat is the whole interception and Orwellian approach to the data harvesting and profiling that goes on, even if you maintain your opt-out cookie. I don't want my browsing scrutinised, boiled down and pigeon-holed.

"I am not a number..."

[Florence]

VM are staying quiet as they are only seeing pounds signs they know what this is capeable of doing and so do the techies at VM who work with this..

I have been talking with a techie from BT who is no longer with BT he decalerd this the biggest msitake the ISPs could make as it removes power to the third party.
Strips adverts from websites that are being paid to advertise replacing them with ones OIX has on the network.
All port 80 is monitord regardless of opting in or out.

Opt in the ISP gets a share of the cash opt out the opt out cookie can allow Webwise access to your pc for information that will go direct to their servers.
This is another form of domination only adverts you will ever see are the ones OIX have your browsing will slow down due to the proxys you go through to allow Phorm to gather your information..

If the proxy (webwise) ever goes titsup it will be a nightmare to sort out....

BT line on the way think I have seen enough and the silence from VM makes me think the smaller ISPs on ADSL and slower speed is my best option.

[popper]

Originally Posted by SMHarman

But did Phorm need to register. BT were running the trial and registered. BT could legitimately try to argue that they were passing out data for marketing purposes, something many clients agree to do on thier applications.

The vendors of say VMs billing system do not have to make a register because VM are storing their clients data on the system, they need to make a DPA registration because they are storing information on thier clients and their employees, and wow there are a lot of there and theirs in that sentence.

well OC they did need to register, as they have now done so.

its an interesting point though, and i didnt really give it much thought if any, other than the need to be registered to be legal.

ignoring for the moment that fact they were operational for a long time before they registered.

looking at the companys Patent capabilitys and objectives, and then their current DPP listing (im not sure if its changed since i last looked) today, it does seem likely they need to add a few more 'purpose' parts given their old BT trials, as well as any upcoming trial and deployments.

remember , these listing are for any company held records and data they may have on a 'data subject',and so when you send a 'data protection act request' and the fixed fee, for any and all data held about YOU to be sent in by return post in human readable form, they must comply etc.

perhaps someone can go and look into that, and see what they might be currently missing in their listing.
http://www.ico.gov.uk/ESDWebPages/Search.asp?EC=1

theres no direct url so you need to search on phorm in the name section.

[dev]

Originally Posted by Florence

Strips adverts from websites that are being paid to advertise replacing them with ones OIX has on the network.

Opt in the ISP gets a share of the cash opt out the opt out cookie can allow Webwise access to your pc for information that will go direct to their servers.

This is another form of domination only adverts you will ever see are the ones OIX have your browsing will slow down due to the proxys you go through to allow Phorm to gather your information..

care to even give some evidence to any of the above 3 things being remotely true?

NOWHERE has said that phorm are replacing ads on sites
Webwise, by storing a cookie, can't access your pc
Who said anything about it being a proxy?

[popper]

Originally Posted by dav

The TT/CPW statement of how they are going to implement this is the most sensible thing any of the ISP's concerned have said on the matter. This is the ONLY way to implement it. If we have to have it, this HAS to be the way.
No ifs, no buts. Opt-in only. Drop the spin. Tell the truth. Are you listening VM?

(I suspect not. I have a mental image of VM execs with their fingers in their ears shouting, "LaLaLaLaLaLa")

i suspect in (a small?)part , TT/CPW didnt like the thought of masses of paying users taking control of how their personal data can be explicitly used by sending a simple 'DPA notice'.

after all, if you dont bother to type one up, and send it registered post, outlining your instructions, then the ISPs generic T&C concent part, can perhaps give them lots of options... to abuse said concent.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by dev

Who said anything about it being a proxy?

Nobody did. Way I understand this is there are two processes.
Outbound
A)
A1 The outbound request is trifurcated and one goes to the server you are looking for
A2 a copy is passed to the phorm harvester on VMs (or whoevers property).
A3 a copy is passed to the phorm phishing blacklist (though this must be before A1 or you would get a correct response in C3.
B)
B1 The standard outbound request is responded to by the host.
B2 The Phorm copy is harvested and allocated the client ID number and the advertising catagory.
Inbound
C1 If the response is from a server / company using OIX and you are opted in the page detects the cookie on your computer and using that cookie customises the advertising experience and the in page requests to OIX for adverts customises the response from OIX.
C2 If the response is from a server / company using OIX and if no Cookie or an opt out cookie is detected then OIX cannot customise the response.
C3 If the response is from anyone else the page is served as it would have been.
In fact in all cases the page is served intact all that is changing in C2 is that the response from the OIX server for an advert to place in the page results in a different image being returned.

The big problem everyone has is A2 and why that happens whether you are opted in or out.

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by dav

What really gets my goat is the whole interception and Orwellian approach to the data harvesting and profiling that goes on, even if you maintain your opt-out cookie. I don't want my browsing scrutinised, boiled down and pigeon-holed.

Me too!
/aol

And of course, that Phorm and VM may decide next year to use more of my personal browsing data for a different revenue-raising project. I'd imagine that the RIAA-types would pay to identify frequent visitors to bittorrent sites...

For me it's the principle of maintaining control of private data.
The other major means of communication (snail mail, telephone, etc) are protected to the extent that this wouldn't be permitted -- why on earth should we allow them to profit from our private data because it's online?



---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:37 ----------

Originally Posted by popper

i suspect in (a small?)part , TT/CPW didnt like the thought of masses of paying users taking control of how their personal data can be explicity used by sending a simple 'DPA notice'.

after all, if you dont bother to type one up, and send it registered post, outlining your instructions, then the ISPs generic T&C concent part, can perhaps give them lots of options... to abuse said concent.

Has anybody heard of a response from VM to one of those DPA s11 letters yet?

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by ceedee

Has anybody heard of a response from VM to one of those DPA s11 letters yet?

Did Rob not say he received one.

[Altern8]

Would appear we are making some headway in this. Maybe VM and BT will take note of this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7289481.stm

[popper]

some stuff coming through on the markets wires, but they still rate it 'good value'...., so users need to work harder to make them realise theres no pay day here

http://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/...nd-privacy.jsp
"
Phorm weakens on placing and privacy

Created: 11 March 2008 Written by: Tim Bradshaw Phorm's shares fell 30 per cent in a week, before the online advertising provider announced a $65m (£32m) institutional fund-raising.
....
"
that old link has
http://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/...fight-back.jsp
"
Phorm helps ISPs fight back

Created: 20 February 2008 Written by: Tim Bradshaw Three of UK's Internet service providers have signed up to a new advertising platform that could create a lucrative new revenue stream - and an Aim-traded company called Phorm is running it.

...
Will users assent to this? ....

Phorm's board and management team includes big-hitters from operators AT&T and BT and online ad leaders aQuantive and DoubleClick - the latter pair bought by Microsoft and Google. Hopes of a similar deal may be sustaining Phorm's share price, which has rocketed from 138p at the start of 2006 - when it was called 121 Media - to 3,350p today.
...
"

[as requested ,edited to an even shorter standard ] hard to get the point across now though, as a side comment:i didnt include entire articles in any of the links i post though hence the .... for missing text in all of them.
is it ok now Mick?

editing time nearly up and no reply or PMs so i guess it must be.

Popper - Can't you just post one paragraph and a link to said articles? - Please consider copyright issues when copying entire articles from other websites. Thanks.