Buying a Washing Machine

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by iadom

Beko = Turkish made low end of the market goods, along with the Korean made LG, they suffer from a very long supply line when parts are required. One of these days people will wake up to the fact that, 'YOU ONLY GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR'. Although it has been put back the WEEE waste directive is due to come into force very soon, then all the makers of cheap tat ( 50% of the market ) will find themselves having to include the cost of recycling their rubbish machines in the list price. Will that make them produce a better machine, time will tell but we only have ourselves to blame. If washing machines had increased in price in line with say cars, then a decent basic washer would now be costing you around £750 to £800.

Cars cost less now (as a percentage of income) than they ever have.

Also (and I guess I can say this as an owner of a Miele washing machine) there's nothing wrong with a 150 quid Beko unit if that's your budget. It might only last two years, but it is cheaper to throw it away and buy a new one than having it repaired.

Also, I wouldn't slag off LG gear...sure it's not the best, but it's got a reasonably good name for half decent products at a half decent price. They are also one of the largest consumer electronics companies in the world, so they can't be THAT bad!

[Angua]

I can recommend a Bosch Dishwasher

Mines 5 years old and still going strong.

[iadom]

Originally Posted by andygrif

Cars cost less now (as a percentage of income) than they ever have.

Also (and I guess I can say this as an owner of a Miele washing machine) there's nothing wrong with a 150 quid Beko unit if that's your budget. It might only last two years, but it is cheaper to throw it away and buy a new one than having it repaired.

Also, I wouldn't slag off LG gear...sure it's not the best, but it's got a reasonably good name for half decent products at a half decent price. They are also one of the largest consumer electronics companies in the world, so they can't be THAT bad!

Pardon me for having an opinion, but then I have only been in the trade 36 years. As for LG being any good tell that to the customer I went to last week with a 2 year old LG that had suffered a main drum support failure, that the machine was BER ( beyond economic repair )and was not a real cheapo. I advised her to buy a Bosch which she did. Buy a cheap washer at £200 that lasts 2 years, cost after ten years £1000 plus a far greater amount of breakdowns, buy a good quality machine at £400 to £500 and get 10 to 15 years of far more reliable service. The 'its cheaper to throw it away' attitude is one of the root causes of the poor quality on sale today. The WEE directive cannot come soon enough.

[Wicked_and_Crazy]

Originally Posted by andygrif

Also (and I guess I can say this as an owner of a Miele washing machine)

hmmm Miele washing machines, arent they cold fill??? i have hot water in my tank that im not using at night so seems a good idea to use it in an economy 7 wash!

Did you buy it from John Lewis?

[iadom]

Originally Posted by Wicked_and_Crazy

hmmm Miele washing machines, arent they cold fill??? i have hot water in my tank that im not using at night so seems a good idea to use it in an economy 7 wash!

Did you buy it from John Lewis?

You will find that most machines on the market now are cold fill only, they regulate the water intake far better than earlier machines and you need a slow rise in temperature for the modern detergents to work to maximum efficiency.

[handyman]

If you have the space I'd reccomend a whirlpool american style cold fill top loader. If not a miele is a close 2nd.

[iadom]

Originally Posted by andygrif

Cars cost less now (as a percentage of income) than they ever have.

Sorry that I didn't reply to this part of your post earlier, I am well aware that with the exception of house prices, most things are cheaper in relative terms as a percentage of income. If you had read my post carefully you would have understood what I was saying. The reason I chose cars & washing machines for my anology was because they are both 'old' technology when compared to computers, DVD recorders etc. Fifteen or twenty years ago, a 1000 rpm spin, basic washer would have cost you around £300 or more. Today you can buy a 1600 rpm spin, basic machine for £199. The only way you can do this is by reducing production costs, or reducing the quality. In most cases the major manfacturers have chosen the latter option, helped along by the 'sheds', Comet, Currys, et al. So I will reverse my analogy and say that if cars had changed in price like washing machines over the last 15 to 20 years, a basic Mondeo would now be costing you around £6000 new. The sad fact is that whilst cars are more reliable today than they have ever been, the same cannot be said for your average, £200, Italian, Spanish, Turkish, Korean, Chinese pile of junk washing machine.

NB. Miele are, I would say the best machine on the market today, but what I said earlier holds true, you only get what you pay for, and Miele are very expensive to buy. They do have a 10 year warranty but you must treat them with care. A customer of a colleague of mine accidentally damaged the door seal on her Miele washer/dryer last week, cost of replacement door seal £156 . Cost of door seal for most washer/dryers on the market is between £25 & £45.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by handyman

If you have the space I'd reccomend a whirlpool american style cold fill top loader. If not a miele is a close 2nd.

But the US market is moving to front loaders. Which are better or does in not make any difference?
__________________

Originally Posted by Wicked_and_Crazy

hmmm Miele washing machines, arent they cold fill??? i have hot water in my tank that im not using at night so seems a good idea to use it in an economy 7 wash!

Did you buy it from John Lewis?

But the electricity in you entire house is on E7 at night so your washing machine will heat the water and run on E7 power.

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by iadom

Pardon me for having an opinion, but then I have only been in the trade 36 years. As for LG being any good tell that to the customer I went to last week with a 2 year old LG that had suffered a main drum support failure, that the machine was BER ( beyond economic repair )and was not a real cheapo. I advised her to buy a Bosch which she did. Buy a cheap washer at £200 that lasts 2 years, cost after ten years £1000 plus a far greater amount of breakdowns, buy a good quality machine at £400 to £500 and get 10 to 15 years of far more reliable service. The 'its cheaper to throw it away' attitude is one of the root causes of the poor quality on sale today. The WEE directive cannot come soon enough.

I'm not knocking your knowlegde, experience or opinion - but no company becomes one of the biggest by only producing rubbish, it's basic economics and marketing. My mother has a Goldstar telly (which as you know became LG) which has been going strong for about 15 years I would guess, so they can't be THAT bad!

And yes, on the basis that buying a 200 quid washer means that it will break down every two year (which it obviously would not) then you would spend £1000 after ten years - about the same as a Miele, which are tested to last 10 years too. Personally I'd rather have the Miele for the reasons you said, but some people simply cannot afford that much upfront, which is why there is a range of brands and qualities available - again, basic marketing and economics.

Originally Posted by Wicked_and_Crazy

hmmm Miele washing machines, arent they cold fill??? i have hot water in my tank that im not using at night so seems a good idea to use it in an economy 7 wash!

Did you buy it from John Lewis?

Yes and yes! But it's soooooo quiet!

Originally Posted by iadom

Sorry that I didn't reply to this part of your post earlier, I am well aware that with the exception of house prices, most things are cheaper in relative terms as a percentage of income. If you had read my post carefully you would have understood what I was saying. The reason I chose cars & washing machines for my anology was because they are both 'old' technology when compared to computers, DVD recorders etc. Fifteen or twenty years ago, a 1000 rpm spin, basic washer would have cost you around £300 or more. Today you can buy a 1600 rpm spin, basic machine for £199. The only way you can do this is by reducing production costs, or reducing the quality. In most cases the major manfacturers have chosen the latter option, helped along by the 'sheds', Comet, Currys, et al. So I will reverse my analogy and say that if cars had changed in price like washing machines over the last 15 to 20 years, a basic Mondeo would now be costing you around £6000 new.

Point taken

Originally Posted by SMHarman

But the US market is moving to front loaders. Which are better or does in not make any difference?

My mother used to swear by her toploader when I was a kid...mind you, my grandmother used to swear by her twin-tub. I'm sure somone will know for sure, but I would think by their nature the toploaders are less abusive to your clothes, and of course better for people with bad backs!

[iadom]

Originally Posted by SMHarman

But the US market is moving to front loaders. Which are better or does in not make any difference?

It depends on wether ot not you are on a water meter. The top loader requires far more water for a wash than a front loader, however the stress on front loader bearings and suspension is far greater than on the top loader.
__________________

Originally Posted by andygrif

I'm not knocking your knowlegde, experience or opinion - but no company becomes one of the biggest by only producing rubbish, it's basic economics and marketing. My mother has a Goldstar telly (which as you know became LG) which has been going strong for about 15 years I would guess, so they can't be THAT bad!

I will quote you a reply I got from a colleague who has been in the trade for almost 40 years, his firm employ 15 engineers doing a large amount of contract work, including LG appliances. I was asking him his opinion on the LG machines.

"On these the weights come loose, the suspension legs have been upgraded and the pump although £43.00 to buy trade is little more than a £3.50 askol. On top of that the suspension pins come out of the units and they do suffer from vibration unless the load is perfect.

other than that they are mediocre "

The increase in many manufacturers machines under 2 years old that are BER'd has increased dramatically in the past couple of years.

[handyman]

Originally Posted by andygrif

And yes, on the basis that buying a 200 quid washer means that it will break down every two year

When I repaired washers we saw many many indesit cheapo £200 washers break down and be un ecomonical to repair after 14 months. So not only do you have the poor wash performance of them they are going to need replacing all the time.

Originally Posted by andygrif

about the same as a Miele, which are tested to last 10 years too.

Miele washing machines are designed and tested for 5,000 wash cycles - that's a life of 15 to 20 years at an average of 5 washes a week.

just look at the other features...

direct enamel casing that won't chip, flake, scratch, yellow or corrode
drum axle which is as strong as that found on a prestige motor car
unbreakable cast iron cradle that stabilises the machine and will never crumble as a concrete block can
chrome porthole door and metal door catch that is designed to be opened and shut 60,000 times

How many door catch's and door buttons and door rims have you been out to iadom? I dropped a bottle of beer on one the other day and it bounced off the rim not even scratching it, that would have smashed a hotpoint one.

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by iadom

I will quote you a reply I got from a colleague who has been in the trade for almost 40 years, his firm employ 15 engineers doing a large amount of contract work, including LG appliances. I was asking him his opinion on the LG machines.

"On these the weights come loose, the suspension legs have been upgraded and the pump although £43.00 to buy trade is little more than a £3.50 askol. On top of that the suspension pins come out of the units and they do suffer from vibration unless the load is perfect.

other than that they are mediocre "

The increase in many manufacturers machines under 2 years old that are BER'd has increased dramatically in the past couple of years.

I'm not trying to be difficult here (no really, I'm not!) but I don't understand if you're supporting my argument or countering it!

So your colleague suggests one fault (presumably not evident on ALL LG machines, and certainly not TV's ) but apart from that there are mediocre, which means they are average. But so is the price. And every manufacturer places large mark-ups on spares, which is how they are able to offer machines at such a low price in the first place.

If I could get an LG machine for 200 quid and it was warrantied for two years, I'd be happy. As I said before, I'm not saying they're great, but I am saying there is as valid a place in the market for a Beko or LG as there is for a Bosch or Miele.

Originally Posted by handyman

When I repaired washers we saw many many indesit cheapo £200 washers break down and be un ecomonical to repair after 14 months. So not only do you have the poor wash performance of them they are going to need replacing all the time.

Whilst I of course bow the superior knowledge of household appliance experts on hand here...both of you are only seeing this from the point of view of repairing them. You don't get to see thousands of cheap machines that DO NOT go wrong within two years.

The name you suggested there I can offer some real-world experience of. My first washing machine was a cheap and cheerful Indesit unit. I had it for 9 years and it NEVER went wrong. In the end the vibration caused the screws holding the front panel on to sheer, and then we bought the Miele. But I paid less than 200 quid for that back in 1992 and I'd say that's pretty good value to me. If my 800 quid Miele lasts that long I'll be happy too.

Originally Posted by handyman

Miele washing machines are designed and tested for 5,000 wash cycles - that's a life of 15 to 20 years at an average of 5 washes a week.

Ah yes, there are the REALLY expensive ones that have a ten year warranty. Mine was the cheaper one (800 quid?!?!?!?) and it (according to the John Lewis chappy) is tested to last 10 years and has a two year warranty.

[handyman]

I cannot see the logic in buying a mediocre washer for £200 with sub standard wash performance and water ecomomy with a 2 year life when for £441 you can have a AA washer with a 20 year life? Miele 500

[edit] all the Meile washing machines are designed to 5000 wash cycles not just the expensive ones. As for Indesit the older machines where great, solid built and had good longevity. The new cheaper ones are crap and the chassis folds under its own weight in many cases. Contrast this to the Miele which makes me fold under its weight

Is this your machine andy?

[iadom]

Originally Posted by andygrif

The name you suggested there I can offer some real-world experience of. My first washing machine was a cheap and cheerful Indesit unit.

For 'cheap and cheerful' you now need to substitute 'cheap and nasty' for a good many machines on the market today, that includes all £200 appliances. The real problem arises because the manufacturers then charge a riduculous price for the spares. On some of the latest Indesit machines costing circa £200, the motor costs £110 and the notoriously unreliable electronic control module costs £100. It also has a one piece welded plastic outer drum. There is no provision to do any repairs on the bearings, inner drum etc. Any fault requires a complete drum replacement, cost of drum £150, add on a reasonable labour charge and you can soon see why so many machines are scrapped within 2 years. From that you will understand why most of the trade inserts a letter 'h' between the 5th & 6th letters of the companies name.

[lippy]

I can understand both points,take your chance with cheap stuff or pay for reliability.

I tend to go for cheaper makes when it comes to certain goods.Some of them perform very well.

A friend bought a top brand american style fridgefreezer for £800,it broke down after 13 months.
My £200 LEC is going strong after 6 years.

You don't always get what you pay for,i know that from car tyres when i was a mechanic and tools/paint no i'm doing building work!

Maybe what i should have asked is what are the best of the cheaper makes?