still racist

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

EDIT
Escapee, I just saw your post. With all due respect there is a difference between you "knowing" and someone "proving".

Additionally, your assertion that "no-one else in that line of business ever bothered to ask that company about a job if they were not of Pakistani origin." is evidence of self exclusion / discrimination - not proof of discrimination on the part of the company.

I would guess that any case of discrimination follows the route of (A) someone reporting it (B) suitable organisation investigating it (C) A case put together to go to court.

Unfortunately there are organisations who channel lots of effort into discrimination against certain groups, but these same organisations would not see fit to do the reverse.

Me 'Knowing' and someone 'Proving' would need to involve an organisation that deal with racial discrimination, is there such an organisation that would be interested in white men of UK origin being descriminated against, I think not it would just be brushed under the carpet as positive discrimination.

I am sure similar to my example happens in all parts of the country by companies run by people from a different race, proving however is near impossible as you say.

Personally I dont see a huge issue with them openly admitting they only employ Pakistani people, as long as I am allowed to openly choose what race I employ.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Escapee

I would guess that any case of discrimination follows the route of (A) someone reporting it (B) suitable organisation investigating it (C) A case put together to go to court.

Yes, that's the theory - except (C) which would usually be expected to have been a tribunal case before reaching court.

Originally Posted by Escapee

Unfortunately there are organisations who channel lots of effort into discrimination against certain groups, but these same organisations would not see fit to do the reverse.

Me 'Knowing' and someone 'Proving' would need to involve an organisation that deal with racial discrimination, is there such an organisation that would be interested in white men of UK origin being descriminated against, I think not it would just be brushed under the carpet as positive discrimination.

Yes, it's called Employment law, Industrial / Employment tribunals and, ultimately, the courts. None of which are single race focused yet all of which, strangely, seem to be suffering a lack of activity (at any level) proving what you allege to be commonplace.

Originally Posted by Escapee

I am sure similar to my example happens in all parts of the country by companies run by people from a different race, proving however is near impossible as you say.

The statistics and national tribunal / court records would suggest otherwise. Proving it needs a prima facie case to test and as I stated earlier I'm not personally aware of any having been prosecuted in respect of positive discrimination.

Originally Posted by Escapee

Personally I dont see a huge issue with them openly admitting they only employ Pakistani people, as long as I am allowed to openly choose what race I employ.

Yes, but they haven't admitted it. Your earlier statement only proved self exclusion / discrimination on the part of third parties so I'm afraid your statement is based on a flawed hypothesis. That aside, your closing statement says a lot in that it suggests that you believe the way to redress discrimination is to discriminate - in effect your argument bolsters the very premise of positive discrimination - you might want to think about that.

[Russ]

Is it just Port Talbot or do Indian/Cantonise/Chinese restaurants in other areas have very few or no whites employed there?

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Russ B

Is it just Port Talbot or do Indian/Cantonise/Chinese restaurants in other areas have very few or no whites employed there?

It's pretty much the same all over, though it can be explained by various factors.

They are "specialist" restaurants dealing, primarily, with a particulr type of cuisine.

Additionally the restaurant / food service sector is among the lowest paid nationally and, as such, isn't "top of the pops" for your average ayran white supremacist job hunter these days.

Interestingly the "carry out" versions of these establishments tend to be an employment sector where most of those employed as delivery drivers who are not of the same race as the service provider are doing so as a secondary or undeclared income.

If you go to the ONS site you won't find Indian, Chinese, or Cantonese "delivery driver" as a recognised employment sector.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

They are "specialist" restaurants dealing, primarily, with a particulr type of cuisine.

And that's related to skin colour?

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Additionally the restaurant / food service sector is among the lowest paid nationally and, as such, isn't "top of the pops" for your average ayran white supremacist job hunter these days.

You're not serious....surely/shirley? So one of the reason there are few white workers there is because of the low pay? So why are our factories/call centres/UK cuisine restaurant employees mainly white?

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Interestingly the "carry out" versions of these establishments tend to be an employment sector where most of those employed as delivery drivers who are not of the same race as the service provider are doing so as a secondary or undeclared income.

'Carry out'? You mean Take-Away? All of them (well, the ones I use) around here tend to have an appearance which relates to the nationality of the establishment.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Russ B

And that's related to skin colour?

Well, erm, yes, if we're talking about authenticity. I'm not saying it's right, I'm stating a fact. By way of an example - how "Indian" would you consider a 6 foot tall blond haired, blue eyed caucasian waiter to be?

Originally Posted by Russ B

You're not serious....surely/shirley? So one of the reason there are few white workers there is because of the low pay? So why are our factories/call centres/UK cuisine restaurant employees mainly white?

I don't know Russ....perhaps it's a conspiracy? According to the Labour force survey "52% of male Bangladeshi workers work in the restaurant industry (compared with only 1% of white males)."

Perhaps it's passed you by but the number of factory jobs and call centres being outsourced / staffed by foreign nationals in the UK and / or foreign nationals abroad is constantly on the increase. Businesses have been quick to spot the fact that they can get the job done cheaper (though not always as well or better) by foreign nationals - irrespective of their demographic location.

Originally Posted by Russ B

'Carry out'? You mean Take-Away? All of them (well, the ones I use) around here tend to have an appearance which relates to the nationality of the establishment.

I think the reason / rationale / logic behind that has been stated in various guises above.

Just out of interest, does your local Welsh Rarebit Take-away delivery driver look like Tom Jones or Harry Seacombe?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Well, erm, yes, if we're talking about authenticity. I'm not saying it's right,

Neither am I! You seem to be saying a white person is unable to make a meal taste authentic which as I think most people agree is proposterous!

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

I don't know Russ....perhaps it's a conspiracy?

Perhaps your assertion that one of the reason there are so many Indian people in Indian restaurants is due to the low pay is just a little cock-eyed? I put it to you that your suggestion is complete tosh, otherwise the majority of barmen, callcentre workers, factory workers, shop assistants, care workers etc would be Indian/Bangladishi/Pakistani too.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

I think the reason / rationale / logic behind that has been stated in various guises above.

Reason/rationale/logic or your opinion?

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Just out of interest, does your local Welsh Rarebit Take-away delivery driver look like Tom Jones or Harry Seacombe?

Sadly there aren't any Rarebit take-aways - irrelevant though, seeing as I'm not suggesting the Indian take aways here have staff who look like Imran Khan or Shilpa Shetty

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Russ B

Is it just Port Talbot or do Indian/Cantonise/Chinese restaurants in other areas have very few or no whites employed there?

Its the same around here, for a number of years I did the circuit of chinese takeaways in the Cwmbran area, mainly because after a few years they changed hands and the standards went down so I would try another. I kept stumbling across a white woman and her daughter working behind the counter, and knew it was a good one when I found them.

I found out that the mother was married to a chinese guy who was a cook, he was a good cook because I knew as soon as I saw them behind the counter the food would be OK.

These two white women were OK for working in the takeaway though because the husband was the chef, I have only ever seen one other white person around here serving in a chinese takeaway. It's the same with the Indian takaways, very rare to see a white person working there.

The exception these days though seems to be other type of shops run by Asians, my local SPA has a white guy stacking shelves. I dont know what its like these days, but all the Indian/Pakistani shops in the Pill area of Newport were very lacking in white workers. I used to find there was a bit of an atmosphere in the shops in that area, I was never sure if they were trading just to cater for the Asian community but I never felt welcome when I entered. (I'm talking about 10-15 years ago though)

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

In Tooting (SOuth London), most if not all of the Indian/Pakistani restaurants have asian waiters. There are som ethat have white workers who happen to be Eastern European. I have a friend who owns a restuarant in Tooting and he tells me that when he has a vacancy for a waiter, his first choice of staff would be a family member or a friend of family etc etc. The reason for this is that he is looking to sort out either his own family member (extended family) with a job or someone else he might know. The chef is almost always exclusively a pakistani/indian often a family memberr because like it or not if you want to go and eat an authentic indian you'd rather eat one cooked by an Indian(well I know I would). I go to eat outr in Portuguese restaurants frquently, and the chefs are all Portuguese. Thats my preference as Im sure it would be with the magority of diners looking for an authentically cooked meal.


As for people coming in looking for work, he tells me that he hardly ever gets an enquiry from an English white person to work in the restaurant, and if anyone does come to ask, they dont want to work for the relatively low wages and long hours that he is paying.

He has told me on more than one occassion that he would love to employ english girls as waitresses in his restaurant, as they would be more flirtatious with the staff then his asian male waiters.

There is also a muslim run cafe/italian restaurant in Tooting which has white female staff. They are all eastern European, and he pays a minimum wage and the tips are good.

In central London most of the restaurant waitresses are white Eastern European girls.

The pattern to me is that white English people do not want to work in the restaurant/takeaway industry because it does not meet there payment expectations. I have previously posted on this forum about my difficulty in getting an English person to work in a sales role because the hourly rate was minimum wage + commission. 90% of the people responding to my advert were asian/foreign (non English).

So in my opinion only Asians in the restaurant industry is not solely based on the jobs only being made available to asians, but a lot is also to do with UK white people not applying or wanting to work in such industries.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Russ B

Neither am I! You seem to be saying a white person is unable to make a meal taste authentic which as I think most people agree is proposterous!

I'm sorry, but nowhere have I said anything of the sort and further, to the best of my knowledge ,waiters (as in the example I actually cited) don't make meals.

Originally Posted by Russ B

Perhaps your assertion that one of the reason there are so many Indian people in Indian restaurants is due to the low pay is just a little cock-eyed? I put it to you that your suggestion is complete tosh

Again I'm sorry, but you seem to be confusing ONS statistics with what you have mistakenly assumed to be an assertion on my part.

Originally Posted by Russ B

,otherwise the majority of barmen, callcentre workers, factory workers shop assistants would be Indian/Bangladishi/Pakistani too.

Rather than have you misinterpret anything further, or afford you the opportunity of suggesting / implying that I have suggested something which I patently have not, you're welcome to read the Labour force survey from Spring 2004 to Winter 2004/05 wherein you can see the percentiles (vs per capita population by ethnicity) suggest that what you are suggesting is actually the case in many parts of the UK.

Originally Posted by Russ B

Reason/rationale/logic or your opinion?

If it were my opinion I'd have said so. I don't see why you're intent on arguing the merits of a statement you made when no one has contested any element of it.

Originally Posted by Russ B

Sadly there aren't any Rarebit take-aways - irrelevant though, seeing as I'm not suggesting the Indian take aways here have staff who look like Imran Khan or Shilpa Shetty

I know there aren't and I know you weren't, but anyone with a modicum of sense reading this is well aware of the stereotype you were trying to portray and the message it conveys.

good grief! A sensible,adult conversation about racism...Where am I?Is this CF?

Well done and I've ENJOYED reading this thread because I've been given some interesting ideas and thoughts about an issue we so seldom manage to discuss without bickering on CF.

Well until I pointed it out of course...having seen the last posting before mine...I must learn to keep my big mouth shut...

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

I'm sorry, but nowhere have I said anything of the sort and further, to the best of my knowledge ,waiters (as in the example I actually cited) don't make meals.

In that case I apologise however in future you might want to clarify such things as "Well, erm, yes, if we're talking about authenticity."

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Again I'm sorry, but you seem to be confusing ONS statistics with what you have mistakenly assumed to be an assertion on my part.

So what does the rate of pay in the restaurant/food service have to do with the staff in Asian-food restaurants being Asian? Please don't point me to a link - let's hear it in your own words please.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Rather than have you misinterpret anything further, or afford you the opportunity of suggesting / implying that I have suggested something which I patently have not, you're welcome to read the Labour force survey from Spring 2004 to Winter 2004/05 wherein you can see the percentiles (vs per capita population by ethnicity) suggest that what you are suggesting is actually the case in many parts of the UK.

Thanks, I'll look at that.

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

I know there aren't and I know you weren't, but anyone with a modicum of sense reading this is well aware of the stereotype you were trying to portray and the message it conveys.

If you've got something to say, please have the intestinal fortitude to come straight out with it, and not imply some unsubstatiated rubbish.

I'm posting on what I can see around me in my own town. The 'ethnic' population is quite possibly one of the lowest in the UK, this is why I'm asking about other areas.

I'm sure you've missed this but I don't "do" stereotypes.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Russ B

In that case I apologise however in future you might want to clarify such things as "Well, erm, yes, if we're talking about authenticity."

Russ, without labouring the point (and ruining Coggy's Pimms and after eights evening altogether) the paragraph in which the above phrase was used was fairly self explanatory in that I even cited an example by way of clarification.

Originally Posted by Russ B

So what does the rate of pay in the restaurant/food service have to do with the staff in Asian-food restaurants being Asian? Please don't point me to a link - let's hear it in your own words please.

They are interlinked in that those coming from an ethnic minority are more predisposed to take lower paid jobs in certain sectors due to their social standing (perceived or otherwise). SLM's examples (whilst not my own words) are a perfect reflection of this.

Originally Posted by Russ B

Thanks, I'll look at that.

Not a problem, you're welcome. There are some truly alarming figures contained in that which show how the UK is starting to pan out workforce wise. Incidentally NI, as a micro reflection of ethnic employment, has actually a higher per capita ratio of uptake in certain sectors. However, a lot of this is directly due to ("ex" if you believe the papers) paramilitary involvement in racketeering, social security fraud and protection rackets.

Originally Posted by Russ B

If you've got something to say, please have the intestinal fortitude to come straight out with it, and not imply some unsubstatiated rubbish.

I'm posting on what I can see around me in my own town. The 'ethnic' population is quite possibly one of the lowest in the UK, this is why I'm asking about other areas.

Apologies if you were offended. I posted on the premise that you were more worldlywise than your post implied and, to be honest, I thought you were simply being mischievous in posting what you did. Given your explanation I was wrong with regard to your intent so again, sorry.

Peace.

[Xaccers]

Mate of mine used to work in a Chinese restaurant in Glastonbury, she's caucasian.
I'm pretty sure at least one of the waiteresses in MK's Elements chinese restaurant is caucasian.
Likewise with the Indian Cottage last time I was there which was some time ago (think it's the Indian Palace now).

So, 52% of Bangladeshis work in restaurants (and most curry houses are run by Bangladeshis rather than Indians if memory serves), and only 1% of white people do.
Yet people are suprised that there are more Bangladeshis working in curry houses than white people and jump to the conclusion that whites are obviously being discriminated against.
This thread has show so much "interesting" logic you know?

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Mate of mine used to work in a Chinese restaurant in Glastonbury, she's caucasian.
I'm pretty sure at least one of the waiteresses in MK's Elements chinese restaurant is caucasian.
Likewise with the Indian Cottage last time I was there which was some time ago (think it's the Indian Palace now).

So, 52% of Bangladeshis work in restaurants (and most curry houses are run by Bangladeshis rather than Indians if memory serves), and only 1% of white people do.
Yet people are suprised that there are more Bangladeshis working in curry houses than white people and jump to the conclusion that whites are obviously being discriminated against.
This thread has show so much "interesting" logic you know?

I often find that if there is a discussion along the lines of "asians are discriminated in the work place" there will be people who will always come out with "but asians are racists themselves, they will only employ their own etc etc", often typical of escapee's earlier post for example.

The problem is that rather than look at why the indian restaurant trade for example is dominated by asian workers, an assumption is made that asian restaurant owners simply don't employ whites because they are racist. There are many reasons why you see predominately asians in the restaurant trade, from cooks to waiting staff, and a predominate reason is that hardly anyone else wants to work on the same wages doing the same long hours.

And before we criticise the owners for wanting cheap labour, well one of the reasons for this is the result of us wanting cheap curries to eat. Hardly anyone cares about the salary a waiter gets, all they are interested in is how much their chicken korma is costing.