[Merged] The Europe Thread

Originally Posted by Damien

It going to happen, all the good points of europe i know has be taken from another source so they must be pro-european and hence worthless

After all the independent is a pro-european paper so the pro european augment is already down the drain, if only we had the backing of the mail and the sun then we will be right

The Independent's editor is clearly highy pro-EU, as today's front page is the second time in a week that he has chosen to turn the newspaper into a political pamphlet. The newspaper is, however, clinging to its claim to be 'independent' by the skin of its teeth, by publishing an interesting comment by Bruce Anderson under the headline 'The European Constitution remains an outdated solution to the wrong problem.' It includes a number of interesting thoughts, for example:

... [when writing their constitution] the Americans were able to be frank about their objectives ... [Valery Giscard d'Estang] was not allowed to be so candid, for fear of frightening off many of the conscript citizens of his covert state. But his remit was indeed state-building. The EU already had a parliament, a civil service, a national anthem and a flag. Now, it is to acquire a President, a Foreign Minister, a diplomatic service and a defence capability. That is statehood.

Every time we have signed up to a European treaty, we have found ourselves committed to far more than we expected. This would be no exception. Mr Blair's defences would prove thin red lines indeed when enfiladed from all sides by the forces of the EU Court of Justice.

and

This document is the last attempt by the French to create a Europe which could be run as a Franco-zone.

I have absolutely no objection to people acquiring information about Europe from the newspapers, or even considering and adopting opinions similar to any particular newspaper, whether it be broadly pro- or anti-EU. What I do wish we had a little less of is mindless repetition of newspaper opinion pieces without any attempt to process or internalise the information into a personal opinion. It is irritating when people do this, and it is irritating when those same people assume that that is what everybody else does, because the end result is something along the lines of:

1. You are anti-EU.
2. The Sun is also anti-EU.
3. The Sun's position is clearly ridiculous, and wrong.
4. Therefore you are wrong.

This is a logical fallacy, specifically, the 'Straw Man' fallacy (I'm going to make Graham regret he ever linked to this website: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html ) This is what this morning's Inde does in generous measure, by presenting the pro-EU point of view as 'reality' and the anti-EU view as 'myth' and then illustrating the myth by reference to some of the more lurid claims in the weekend's papers.

EDIT
Damien, why did you feel the need to change your most recent post so completely?

That independent article is pointing out the myths and countering them, what they say is true. Admittedly they are giving a lot of pros about europe , however they seem to be the only ones, but you should be more cooncered with all the tabloids who are all anti--europe. Also read the BBC article

I have a oopiion and will write a long post when i have finished college and hense work at the end of the week

Originally Posted by Damien

That independent article is pointing out the myths and countering them, what they say is true. Admittedly they are giving a lot of pros about europe , however they seem to be the only ones, but you should be more cooncered with all the tabloids who are all anti--europe. Also read the BBC article

I have a oopiion and will write a long post when i have finished college and hense work at the end of the week

They aren't the only ones, the Guardian is pretty pro-EU as well. I'm not sure you're right that all the tabloids are anti- either, IIRC the Mirror has been quite supportive.

And on the subject of the tabloids, why should I be concerned if they are all anti-EU? Does the fact that they are tabloid newspapers mean they are necessarily wrong? Don't forget, for every over-excited red-top and morally-outraged midmarket, there's a respected broadsheet or news magazine echoing their concerns - the Inde quoted the Sunday Telegraph and The Economist as well.

I am not but you made two referances to the inderpendent being pro-eu was i was just pointing out that this is a good thing as most of the other papers are anti-eu

[iadom]

From today's Telegraph, which is definately not a tabloid. here is a fairly balanced breakdown of the fundamental changes that this new document would bring to the status quo.

Originally Posted by iadom

From today's Telegraph, which is definately not a tabloid. here is a fairly balanced breakdown of the fundamental changes that this new document would bring to the status quo.

Thanks, a very useful summary and a timely counterpoint to this morning's federalist apologetic in the Independent.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by towny

1. You are anti-EU.
2. The Sun is also anti-EU.
3. The Sun's position is clearly ridiculous, and wrong.
4. Therefore you are wrong.

Originally Posted by The Sun Says

IS the European Constitution good or bad for Britain?

Tony Blair says itâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s good.

The Sun †â€ÂÂ� along with big business, the unions, the Tories and 100 Labour MPs †â€ÂÂ� says itâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s bad.

So how will the public make up their minds if it comes to a referendum?

Simple. Voters will have to ask themselves who they trust.

In the Commons, Blair accused those who disagree with him of †œpeddling lies and myths.ââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÂ�

It is the same old smear tactic we have seen so many times before.

Blair produced a reel of favourable quotes from newspapers across Europe, seemingly backing up his claim that the constitution is harmless and welcome.

He DIDNâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢T quote from a paper at home, yesterdayââ‚ ¬â„¢s Financial Times, in which German writer Wolfgang Munchau †â€Â� who is very much pro-EU †â€Â� gave a different view to that of the PM.

He said the constitution recognised the EU as a political and legal entity, not a club owned by national governments.

Tellingly, he wrote: †œIf you oppose political integration, then this constitution is clearly not for you.â₠¬Ã‚Â�

He added: †œThe constitution makes it harder for governments to peddle the lie of the EU as a glorified free trade area or a forum for inter governmental co-operation.ââ ¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÂ�

So thatââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s Blair branded a liar in one Germanââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s eyes straight away.

Finally, the writer says the pro-Europeans are losing the debate because they play down the political dimension of the EU, while †œemphasising the increasingly dubious economic benefits of membership.ââ ¡Ã‚¬Ã‚ÂÂ�

Meanwhile the former Belgian Prime Minister, who helped draw up the constitution, says there is no doubt its aim is political †� the creation of a giant EU state.

The honesty of these views is a breath of fresh air.

The British public will judge the Prime Minister in a harsh light if they find he has been less than truthful on an issue which is crucial to this countryââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s future.

Originally Posted by Here are 8 REAL Euro myths, Mr Blair
By TREVOR KAVANAGH
Political Editor

TONY BLAIR says he is looking forward to a †œbattle between reality and mythâ₠¬Ã‚Â� over the new EU superstate.

We will hear more of this as he tries to persuade voters to suspend their disbelief over the EU Constitution.

But if anyone is peddling porkies, it is the PM himself. Here are ten for starters.

MYTH: The PM claimed last week The Sun wants the UK to quit the EU.
FACT: We are critical of Brussels but have always argued for continued membership and have repudiated the UK Independence Partyââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s call for withdrawal.

MYTH: Tony Blair claims three million British jobs depend on EU membership.
FACT: We buy more goods and services from Europe than vice-versa. The EU would lose most if we quit.

MYTH: Tony Blair claims we have the EU to thank for †œjobs, prosperity and stability.ââ ¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÂ�
FACT: Our unemployment rate has fallen below five per cent †� half the European average.

MYTH: Unless we join the euro, our economy will suffer.
FACT: Since we were bundled out of single currency preparations in 1992, Britain has enjoyed a record 12 straight years of growth.

MYTH: Europe has healthier economic productivity.
FACT: UK economic output is £16,440 per head of population, against Germanyââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s £15,904 and Franceââ‚Ã⠀šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s £15,522 .

MYTH: We must follow Europe by giving unions a place on boards and more power in the workplace.
FACT: The British economy is the worldââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s fourth largest thanks to painful workplace reform †â€ÂÂÂ� opposed by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.

MYTH: The European Union is responsible for 60 years of peace in Europe.
FACT: US-led Nato is responsible for bringing down the Berlin Wall. US nuclear power †� opposed by Labour †� ended the Cold War.

MYTH: The Sun slanders Brussels as a bureaucratic madhouse which makes up daft rules like †œstraight bananas.ââ‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÂ�
FACT: The EU issued a directive dictating limits for curvature of bananas. †œThey must be free from abnormal curvature of the fingers,ââ‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ÂÂ� (Commission Regulation 2257, Quality Standards for Bananas).
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004282754,00.html

The sun seems to be Pro the EU common market, but anti constitution. A position most of us would agree with, though, the Sun is good at taking the populist position.

Originally Posted by SMHarman

The sun seems to be Pro the EU common market, but anti constitution. A position most of us would agree with, though, the Sun is good at taking the populist position.

I really like Trevor Kavanagh, he is living proof that while the Sun may well be written with a reading age of eight in mind, those who write it are sharp witted, intelligent people.

Thanks for posting those quotes.

http://www.cec.org.uk/press/myths/myth05.htm

Some of the anti-europe points are true while some are not. You can not be right or wrong it depends on what you want but the fact that most of the media is anti-europe means no one is sure of the advantages people shoould be allowed to make up their own minds

Originally Posted by Damien

http://www.cec.org.uk/press/myths/myth05.htm

Err ... correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that page, after labelling regulations on banana curvature to be a myth, go on to say that the EU has made a directive concerning the curvature of bananas?

The European Commission was asked by national agriculture ministers and the industry to draft legislation in this area. Following extensive consultation with the industry, the proposed quality standards were adopted by national ministers in Council in 1994.

I think we need to be very careful with our terminology here, because it is for certain that B. Liar and others are going to continue their tactic of denouncing those with anti-EU leanings as 'myth-makers' and 'doom-sayers' rather than grappling with the issues.

Fact: There is an EU directive which determines how curved bananas are allowed to be. This is not a myth. It happened. It is the law.

Fact: The EU believes it is reasonable for this directive to exist, in the name of harmonising the differing nationally set standards of banana quality that previously existed.

If the EU wants to claim that the Sun's claim is a myth ('A fictitious story, person, or thing,' according to Dictionary.com) the only way they can do that is by showing that there is no such directive. Clearly they cannot do this. Instead of crying 'myth!', what they ought to be doing, and what Tony B. Liar and other pro-EU people should be doing, is to stop apologising for the EU and start saying why it is a good thing.

For example, debate: Is banana curvature sufficiently important that we need a separate decision-making organisation in Brussels and Strasbourg to rule on it? What is wrong with national Governments making such rulings? Does it really put the single markey in jepoardy if bananas sold in the UK are slightly more curved than those that may be sold in France?

I know it is true but the myth is the way in which it is reported it was asked for but the members and so it was done. It was not some crackpot who decided to make lives difficult. The EU works for the nations inside it and those inside have a say on such laws many oh which are ineffective when applied to one country. Such as having a european standand for something oor another.

Originally Posted by Damien

I know it is true but the myth is the way in which it is reported it was asked for but the members and so it was done. It was not some crackpot who decided to make lives difficult. The EU works for the nations inside it and those inside have a say on such laws many oh which are ineffective when applied to one country. Such as having a european standand for something oor another.

Granted, but that's not what that website says. It says:

Myth: Curved bananas
Bananas must not be excessively curved.
The Sun, 4 March 1998, p6

This is a lie. The claim is not a myth. And that is one of the problems I have with the EU and those who would promote it. They find it very difficult to be proud of what they are trying to achieve and to be honest about how they are going about it. If the EU is so good, why don't they stand up and say, 'Hey, we made a rule about curved bananas, and it's just as well we did, because ...[insert reason here]'? Instead, they sulk in the corner, and grumble, 'It's a myth that bananas must not be excessively curved', which is palpably not true.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by towny

<snip>
For example, debate: Is banana curvature sufficiently important that we need a separate decision-making organisation in Brussels and Strasbourg to rule on it? What is wrong with national Governments making such rulings? Does it really put the single markey in jepoardy if bananas sold in the UK are slightly more curved than those that may be sold in France?

er, no, unless you are a banana importer, when you suddenly find you need different bananas for different markets, the whole point of such legislation is that if a banana can be sold in England it can be sold in France or Germany...

For you or I doing our weekly shop at Tesco pah, but for tesco signing a contract with Carribian Bannana imports inc, it makes life easier.

Though on the flip side the EU working time regs must make thier lives magnitudes more difficult than the banana issue.

Originally Posted by SMHarman

er, no, unless you are a banana importer, when you suddenly find you need different bananas for different markets, the whole point of such legislation is that if a banana can be sold in England it can be sold in France or Germany...

For you or I doing our weekly shop at Tesco pah, but for tesco signing a contract with Carribian Bannana imports inc, it makes life easier.

Though on the flip side the EU working time regs must make thier lives magnitudes more difficult than the banana issue.

If that is the case, why can we not hear an unapologetic defence of it from those with pro-EU leanings? Blair has been dithering about promoting Europe for seven whole years. He has the nerve to stand up now and define the debate as 'myth versus reality', but he has allowed those with anti-EU leanings to shape and define the debate for years. He can hardly be surprised by what he finds. How on earth does he expect to turn opinion round, after giving his opponents such a huge head start? If he fails to win the constitution referendum, he won't have to look far to find someone to blame.