Hamas Israel War

[jfman]

If not looking weak - essentially political posturing - is a price paid in Palestinian blood that will have inevitable consequences around the world.

For clarity I didn’t say that the region deny Israel’s rights to exist (some inevitably do, many do not) - my point was related to its security alone. And I’ve not claimed Israel can’t take steps in genuine self defence.

The pretence that Hamas are the de-facto Palestinian state might soothe the consciences of those that are pro-Israel but for everyone else it rings absolutely hollow as a justification for the civilian death toll and destruction of civilian communities and infrastructure.

Hamas were widely criticised for tactics straight out the Middle Ages, Israel won’t look much better if it’s only the technology that distinguishes them from the conflicts of the 19th and early 20th centuries.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

There's nothing daft about pointing out that Israel, in the absence of clearly defined military objectives are taking the opportunity to decimate Gaza, largely killing thousands of women and children in the process, destroying infrastructure, homes, mosques, hospitals.

It's observable reality.

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The entirety of the population of Gaza don't deserve everything they have destroyed on this basis.

Israel by any measure over any time period kill substantially more Palestinian civilians than Hamas do Israeli ones.

That's a numerical assessment. Not a root cause analysis.
Israel had no choice but to go after Hamas, who hide behind civilians and in tunnels, etc.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

That's a numerical assessment. Not a root cause analysis.
Israel had no choice but to go after Hamas, who hide behind civilians and in tunnels, etc.

Israel absolutely have a choice in how they choose to attack Hamas and to what extent they choose to value civilian Palestinian life in the cost/benefits analysis of every single strike.

To pretend otherwise is to absolve Israel of its responsibility as both an occupying power (internationally recognised) and an actor waging warfare in civilian areas. 12,000 bombs in, with almost as many innocent women and children killed, hundreds of thousands displaced, a territory in ruins, it’s absolutely legitimate to ask what military benefit the next 12,000 bombs will have considering that’ll be more bombs than Hamas militants.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The reason that is absurd is that the reason for Israel’s killing of Palestinians is the persistent aggression of Hamas, who have been lopping rockets into Israel over many years, with occasional acts of additional barbarity as happened in October. They don’t want to negotiate, they sabotaged the peace talks, but you blame Israel. Priceless!

Without those terrorist monsters, there is no reason why a two-state solution wouldn’t work, and even total integration with free movement between the two states once trust was restored. That of course, would take many years.

Israel doesn’t want this war or the constant insecurity it has been putting up with all this time. This is down to Hamas, no-one else.

247 Palestinians have been killed on the West Bank since this started and another 2500+ injured, over 50 of those killed were children but you know there's no reason why a two state solution wouldn't work, except Israel in it's current guise don't want it to and were happy to prop up hamas and put up with an acceptable level of violence against them to prevent it from happening

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You are judging this on the basis of seeing the situation as a numbers game.

This is ridiculous. You can blame Hamas for the high casualty rate. They are the cowards protecting themselves with human shields.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181

These are the people you are defending.

He isn't defending them, don't be daft, criticism of Israel doesn't equate to support of hamas

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

If not looking weak - essentially political posturing - is a price paid in Palestinian blood that will have inevitable consequences around the world.

it’s not political posturing, it’s showing you have the force and fortitude to not be messed around with.

It’s the lack of, that arguably led towards the invasion of Ukraine, invasion of the Falklands and in a large degree the Second World War. If you’re deemed to be weak with no appetite for retaliation, you will be, at some point, attacked.

For clarity I didn’t say that the region deny Israel’s rights to exist (some inevitably do, many do not) - my point was related to its security alone. And I’ve not claimed Israel can’t take steps in genuine self defence.

noted.

The pretence that Hamas are the de-facto Palestinian state might soothe the consciences of those that are pro-Israel but for everyone else it rings absolutely hollow as a justification for the civilian death toll and destruction of civilian communities and infrastructure.

It’s not a pretence though, is it. If there was a two state solution arranged tomorrow, there are very short odds that they government of it would end up being an Islamist Jihadist group funded by Iran ……you can give them any name you wish.

Hamas were widely criticised for tactics straight out the Middle Ages

Using the term “ tactics” is very charitable of you.

Israel won’t look much better if it’s only the technology that distinguishes them from the conflicts of the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Don’t constrain yourself, we can go back thousand of years. As far back as when Jews were expelled from the very land they are accused of occupying ( but that’s a rabbit hole best avoided). Israel only has to look better in the defence of its people, no one else.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

it’s not political posturing, it’s showing you have the force and fortitude to not be messed around with.

Netanyahu needs a distraction because the ball was dropped on his watch. His complicity in permitting funding and resources for Hamas to be allowed into Gaza will historically be viewed, rightly, as disastrous no matter how much he satisfies the bloodlust of Zionists today.

It’s the lack of, that arguably led towards the invasion of Ukraine, invasion of the Falklands and in a large degree the Second World War. If you’re deemed to be weak with no appetite for retaliation, you will be, at some point, attacked.

Israel’s retaliation has been robust for 70 years. It’ll continue to be for 70 more.

It’s not a pretence though, is it. If there was a two state solution arranged tomorrow, there are very short odds that they government of it would end up being an Islamist Jihadist group funded by Iran ……you can give them any name you wish.

Using the term “ tactics” is very charitable of you.

Don’t constrain yourself, we can go back thousand of years. As far back as when Jews were expelled from the very land they are accused of occupying ( but that’s a rabbit hole best avoided). Israel only has to look better in the defence of its people, no one else.

It’s a short sighted view that guarantees peace for no-one. Decimating what little of Palestinian society actually exists guarantees any “political” movements will be fuelled by a desire for revenge, as you say probably funded by Iran. The cycle doesn’t break under more bombs.

[ianch99]

I see Israel has resumed it industrial slaughter of the civilians in Gaza. Go south they said, you will be safe. They are now bombing southern Gaza.

The question still stands: how many dead Gazan children is too much? Where is the red line?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Netanyahu needs a distraction because the ball was dropped on his watch.

We can agree on this. His ineptitude has not only allowed the attack but also fuelled the response.

A stronger Israel May not have experienced this attack. But also Israel was fooled into thinking their existence was being accepted in the region…..which to a degree by the civilised nations it was. But Islamist Iran hold too much sway and finances too many jihadist groups to allow that.

Israel was essentially de-escalating…..big mistake, they won’t make it again.

His complicity in permitting funding and resources for Hamas to be allowed into Gaza will historically be viewed, rightly, as disastrous no matter how much he satisfies the bloodlust of Zionists today.

It’s an accusation, very far from being proved, False flag type stuff best kept for the apollo eleven deniers and flat earthers.

Israel’s retaliation has been robust for 70 years. It’ll continue to be for 70 more.

I’ve spoken to them and that is indeed their plan.

It’s a short sighted view that guarantees peace for no-one. Decimating what little of Palestinian society actually exists guarantees any “political” movements will be fuelled by a desire for revenge, as you say probably funded by Iran. The cycle doesn’t break under more bombs.

I have to concede, there’s no answer. But ask yourself the question. After 2000+ years with no answer, why would one miraculously appear now?

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Originally Posted by ianch99

I see Israel has resumed it industrial slaughter of the civilians in Gaza. Go south they said, you will be safe. They are now bombing southern Gaza.

The question still stands: how many dead Gazan children is too much? Where is the red line?

I’m having an intelligent discussion with JFman, don’t interrupt with inane obvious observations, yes we can see it’s all horrible.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

There’s no evidence that they are actively using human shields, it’s merely a lazy trope by the IDF to justify razing entire civilian areas to the ground.

You stated position that Palestinians can “suck it up” has already clearly demonstrated you don’t value Palestinian civilian life, as has the tedious tour of the 2006 Palestinian elections, so forgive me for considering your input of extremely low value and clouded by your own prejudices.

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That’s an outright disgusting and contemptible lie to accuse me of defending Hamas. Clear evidence that you are clutching at desperation to justify your own clearly stated view that the Palestinian civilians, women and children, do not deserve safety in their own land.

I repeat - once again - nobody will find a single post where I do.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ies-dead-nasr/

These are the people you ARE defending. Do these babies not deserve a life merely because they are Palestinian?

Of course I care about civilian lives. It’s Hamas lives I don’t care about because they are bloodthirsty monsters.

But it is inevitable that there will be collateral damage because of Hamas cowardice.

As for your daft statement that there’s no evidence of Hamas using civilians, including schools and hospitals, for cover, exactly how much evidence do you need?

You are being perverse now for the sake of it. That’s all I will say on the matter.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Of course I care about civilian lives. It’s Hamas lives I don’t care about because they are bloodthirsty monsters.

But it is inevitable that there will be collateral damage because of Hamas cowardice.

As for your daft statement that there’s no evidence of Hamas using civilians, including schools and hospitals, for cover, exactly how much evidence do you need?

You are being perverse now for the sake of it. That’s all I will say on the matter.

When I say there’s no evidence it’s because Israel went into the hospital they claimed there were tunnels under and there weren’t any! There were some planted weapons in various and contradictory quantities depending on which media outlet was being asked to peddle their propaganda.

Quite happy for you to not discuss further with me since you have clear disdain for Palestinian civilian lives (in your own words) and your false slurs against my posts are most unwelcome. If that’s all you have then stick to the streaming threads.

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Originally Posted by Pierre

We can agree on this. His ineptitude has not only allowed the attack but also fuelled the response.

A stronger Israel May not have experienced this attack. But also Israel was fooled into thinking their existence was being accepted in the region…..which to a degree by the civilised nations it was. But Islamist Iran hold too much sway and finances too many jihadist groups to allow that.

Israel was essentially de-escalating…..big mistake, they won’t make it again.

It’s an accusation, very far from being proved, False flag type stuff best kept for the apollo eleven deniers and flat earthers.

I’ve spoken to them and that is indeed their plan.

I have to concede, there’s no answer. But ask yourself the question. After 2000+ years with no answer, why would one miraculously appear now?

I’m having an intelligent discussion with JFman, don’t interrupt with inane obvious observations, yes we can see it’s all horrible.

De-escalation was only ever one half of any solution. The other is a Palestinian state (and internal political settlement) that avoids falling into the pockets of Iran or other radical elements that will be more than happy to bankroll attacks for their own political ends with Palestinians providing the fodder. Without Israeli engagement and support (and by proxy American support) it’s always doomed to fail.

I don’t for a minute pretend that’s easy. Millions of legitimately aggrieved people need to let go of the awful things that have gone before. In the future some would have to turn the other cheek at inevitable attempts at sabotage.

From the BBC site ;

Israel Gaza: Hamas raped and mutilated women on 7 October

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67629181

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I see Israel has resumed it industrial slaughter of the civilians in Gaza. Go south they said, you will be safe. They are now bombing southern Gaza.

The question still stands: how many dead Gazan children is too much? Where is the red line?

How many butchered and raped Israelis, some baked in ovens, would it take for you to ‘allow’ Israel to try and wipe out Hamas?

And please don’t hide behind something like “Israel should have retailiated differently” or similar. Hamas is evil and unless eradicated will regroup and do it again.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

How many butchered and raped Israelis, some baked in ovens, would it take for you to ‘allow’ Israel to try and wipe out Hamas?

And please don’t hide behind something like “Israel should have retailiated differently” or similar. Hamas is evil and unless eradicated will regroup and do it again.

Wiping out Hamas is absolutely justifiable , wiping out Hamas at the cost of thousands of innocent lives being lost is not.

Also, the use of sexual violence including rape in the history of this conflict is not exclusively limited to Hamas.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

How many butchered and raped Israelis, some baked in ovens, would it take for you to ‘allow’ Israel to try and wipe out Hamas?

And please don’t hide behind something like “Israel should have retailiated differently” or similar. Hamas is evil and unless eradicated will regroup and do it again.

I have said before numerous times and I will say again. Hamas is a murderous death cult and needs to be be disenfranchised and replaced by a more centrist Palestinian authority. There are other ways to do this: ways more considered and precise. Killing thousands of children is not the only way.

Your comments on this question are disturbing: you reply with emotive phrases when asked a simple question.

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Originally Posted by Pierre

I’m having an intelligent discussion with JFman, don’t interrupt with inane obvious observations, yes we can see it’s all horrible.

Don't be so condescending. This forum is not just for you and him.

"We can see it’s all horrible" Actually, in fact you are unable to. You sanction the loss of so much life in Gaza with no boundaries. Your insincere hand wringing fools no one. You have no compassion for those civilians in Gaza.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

De-escalation was only ever one half of any solution. The other is a Palestinian state (and internal political settlement) that avoids falling into the pockets of Iran or other radical elements that will be more than happy to bankroll attacks for their own political ends with Palestinians providing the fodder. Without Israeli engagement and support (and by proxy American support) it’s always doomed to fail.

I don’t for a minute pretend that’s easy. Millions of legitimately aggrieved people need to let go of the awful things that have gone before. In the future some would have to turn the other cheek at inevitable attempts at sabotage.

Great summary.