smoking and the pub

[orangebird]

Um, yeah, ok then

[SlackDad]

One for each side:

I have every sympathy with the American who was so horrified by what he had read of the effects of smoking that he gave up reading. -- Henry G. Strauss

Isn't having a smoking section in a restaurant like having a peeing section in a swimming pool?

Originally Posted by orangebird

You were implying that if you don't do well at school the only kind of job you'd be able to do is bar work. Or did I read it wrong?

No, I was saying that the statement that has been made many times in this thread, that if you don't like working in a pub you can always leave and get another job, does not hold true for many people who do not enjoy the benefit of professional training and prospects.

In the context of the discussion we're having, why on earth would I choose to suddenly state that bar work is for people who do badly at school? It would be entirely off topic as well as untrue.

Actually there are a great many people in a great many jobs who for one reason or another can't simply walk away even if they wanted to. Sometimes this is due to lack of training, sometimes its family circumstances (your current employer might be very accommodating when your personal circumstances change, but just try getting the same consideration from a new one).

There - now I've said in three paragraphs what I thought was clear in one sentence. Do context, and my own posting history, count for nothing?

[clarie]

Isn't having a smoking section in a restaurant like having a peeing section in a swimming pool?

That's funny as well as true.

Originally Posted by Chris T

No, I was saying that the statement that has been made many times in this thread, that if you don't like working in a pub you can always leave and get another job, does not hold true for many people who do not enjoy the benefit of professional training and prospects.

[Paddy1]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Now now, that's a little reductionist ... it is not simply about protecting bar staff. It is about protecting everyone, including smokers themselves by providing added incentive to quit. That's a far larger constituency than the 54 in your caricature.

This legislation is concerned with the protection of employees in the work place. Again, why not target the hugely more damaging general pollution problem that is affecting you all the time, every day, every night instead of a problem that affects you for a few hours a week and can be reduced to practically zero using good ventillation, dedicated smoking areas.

[ian@huth]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Yes, people are being forced into smoking establishments because if they want a night out, there's nowhere else to go!

Why should smokers be forced out? Because their minority behaviour has an unacceptable impact on the majority. Making things harder for them might also encourage them to quit a habit that's likely to kill them also.

It's that simple!

Chris, could you please post a link to any research that has been done which shows that non-smokers make up the majority of patrons of public houses. I know the approximate percentage of the UK population who are thought to be smokers but have never seen any survey that gives the percentage of public house patrons who are thought to be smokers.

Nobody is forcing anyone into a smoky public house if they want a night out even if there are no non-smoking public houses in the area. There are other places that are non-smoking where you can have a very good night out. Theatre, cinema, restaurant, etc. etc.

I think what you were really trying to say is that there is nowhere to go for a good night out that serves alcohol. If smoking was banned in all public houses then the smoking fraternity (which could be a majority of patrons) would have nowhere to go for a good night out in a place that serves alcohol and allows smoking.

If there is a lack of no-smoking public houses in an area it is most likely because the majority of pub goers want to enjoy a smoke whilst there. You can't tell me that every pub owner is more concerned with tradition and fear of losing custom by becoming non-smoking. If the vast majority of people are non-smokers and most of these only go to smoking allowed pubs because there is no alternative the there is huge potential to reap the massive rewards that opening a no-smoking pub would bring.

Smoking and passive smoking are bad for the health. I don't think that anyone in this thread is saying otherwise. There are beneficial factors for some people in smoking, not everything is negative. The statistics on deaths caused by smoking and passive smoking however have to be subject to analysis. There is a huge difference between saying a person died of a smoking related illness and that smoking killed them. A smoker may die from lung cancer for instance but it may not have been smoking that caused the cancer to develop but the death would more than likely be classed as being caused by smoking.

Many of the deaths from illnesses that could be smoking related are in the over 65 year old age bracket. These are people who probably started smoking in their teens when filter tipped cigarettes were very rare indeed. Will we see a reduction in deaths in this age bracket in future years due to smokers being introduced to the habit with filter tipped cigarettes? Logic says that we will see a reduction because of this fact and the other fact that less people are now smoking. The non-smokers will point to the reduction as being evidence that a smoking ban in public places has caused the reduction.

[Paddy1]

Originally Posted by clarie

Exactly!!! Never mind all of this only 54 bar staff die every year due to passive smoking. That's a hell of a lot of people!! And yet smoking should still be allowed in public places because otherwise it's an infringement of people's right to choose? ********!! There are 54 families out there mourning the loss of a family member, sod your right to choose!

I certainly didn't mean to sound callous but we seem to be ignoring the bigger picture based on personal preference rather than scale of the problem.

[clarie]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Actually there are a great many people in a great many jobs who for one reason or another can't simply walk away even if they wanted to. Sometimes this is due to lack of training, sometimes its family circumstances (your current employer might be very accommodating when your personal circumstances change, but just try getting the same consideration from a new one).

This is an excellent point. A single parent for example may have childcare problems and may only be able to get a babysitter during the evening - he/she may not have a car, but there is a local pub on the corner that can give them the flexibility he/she needs as well as being easy to reach. The same could be true for a carer, someone with money problems who needs an extra job, or a young person who needs some pocket money and yet cannot travel far so needs to earn by glass collecting. All of these people are restricted in terms of when and where they can work, and do not have the liberty to choose between a smoking and a non-smoking establishment.
__________________

Originally Posted by paddy1

I certainly didn't mean to sound callous but we seem to be ignoring the bigger picture based on personal preference rather than scale of the problem.

My comment wasn't aimed at you, rather everyone. Particularly those using the 54 figure as if it were negligible. Sometimes in this thread I get frustrated with all of this talk of personal choice and freedom etc because it seems to ignore the very basic facts.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by clarie

This is an excellent point. A single parent for example may have childcare problems and may only be able to get a babysitter during the evening - he/she may not have a car, but there is a local pub on the corner that can give them the flexibility he/she needs as well as being easy to reach. The same could be true for a carer, someone with money problems who needs an extra job, or a young person who needs some pocket money and yet cannot travel far so needs to earn by glass collecting. All of these people are restricted in terms of when and where they can work, and do not have the liberty to choose between a smoking and a non-smoking establishment.

Well they should stop complaining. A hundred years ago and they'd be down the Pit.

Shall we see if thread can continue meandering along until Christmas?

of this talk of personal choice and freedom etc .

In this country - Pah, the "ban it" brigade rule over here.

Guns, Knives, smoking, drinking, jokes about religion and it goes on......

Banning something, especially in a supposedly "free" country such as ours is the easy way out, the unimaginative way out, the way out for none thinkers, a way out for people who don't want to really solve issues, a way out for people who can't see past the end of their nose.

Ban smoking - job done, what's next?

Unruly kids - ban them, we're cooking today - what next?

Drinking on trains - ban it, next?

and so it goes

[clarie]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well they should stop complaining. A hundred years ago and they'd be down the Pit.

Guns, Knives, smoking, drinking, jokes about religion and it goes on......

I'm very happy guns and knives are banned. Drinkin ain't, and as for religion - don't even go there...

Originally Posted by Pierre

Banning something, especially in a supposedly "free" country such as ours is the easy way out, the unimaginative way out, the way out for none thinkers, a way out for people who don't want to really solve issues, a way out for people who can't see past the end of their nose.

Can you suggest any alternative?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by clarie

Can you suggest any alternative?

Don't participate in activities you don't want to do.
Avoid areas where those activities occur.

I can't stand certain types of music, rather than calling for it to be banned, I do the sensible thing of simply avoiding it.
I don't like watching certain types of TV programs, but rather than wanting those programs banned, I do the sensible thing of not watching them.
It's not hard you know.

[Kliro]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Don't participate in activities you don't want to do.
Avoid areas where those activities occur.

I can't stand certain types of music, rather than calling for it to be banned, I do the sensible thing of simply avoiding it.
I don't like watching certain types of TV programs, but rather than wanting those programs banned, I do the sensible thing of not watching them.
It's not hard you know.

Very different - at the current moment where would you suggest someone who does not like smoke, goes out to socialise??

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Kliro

Very different - at the current moment where would you suggest someone who does not like smoke, goes out to socialise??

Find a non-smoking pub? Most of the pubs round here have well ventilated and segragated smoking areas. What about non-smoking restaurants? Cinemas (all of which, round here, have banned smoking)? It's actually not that difficult.

[clarie]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Don't participate in activities you don't want to do.
Avoid areas where those activities occur.

I can't stand certain types of music, rather than calling for it to be banned, I do the sensible thing of simply avoiding it.
I don't like watching certain types of TV programs, but rather than wanting those programs banned, I do the sensible thing of not watching them.
It's not hard you know.

The types of music and the types of TV programmes you don't like aren't harmful to your health. All types of music and tastes of TV programmes are catered for. If you want to listen to a certain type of music I don't like, I will not be affected by it, and nor will my health.
It's not complicated you know.

Originally Posted by Stuart C

Find a non-smoking pub? Most of the pubs round here have well ventilated and segragated smoking areas. What about non-smoking restaurants? Cinemas (all of which, round here, have banned smoking)? It's actually not that difficult.

I am happy for you that you have such well-equipped pubs in your area. Not all areas do. Besides, as SlackDad said, having a smoking area in a pub is like having a weeing area in a swimming pool.
What if I don't want to go to a restaurant or to the cinema? I want to go to a pub. Need my health be compromised by my indulgence in this great British tradition? Or could you perhaps do me, and all of the other non-smokers, and the staff in the pub a small favour, and step outside for a wee minute to smoke your fag?
I have said it all once and no doubt I will say it all again...

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by clarie

I am happy for you that you have such well-equipped pubs in your area. Not all areas do. Besides, as SlackDad said, having a smoking area in a pub is like having a weeing area in a swimming pool.
What if I don't want to go to a restaurant or to the cinema? I want to go to a pub. Need my health be compromised by my indulgence in this great British tradition? Or could you perhaps do me, and all of the other non-smokers, and the staff in the pub a small favour, and step outside for a wee minute to smoke your fag?
I have said it all once and no doubt I will say it all again...

My point was that it is possible to find non-smoking forms of entertainment (including pubs).