Brexit (Old)

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Your entitled to your opinion...

You are too kind.

What I've noticed is that some regular Remainers on this thread have nothing but contempt for key Leavers. I haven't seen the Leavers on this thread pour such vitriol and scorn on the leading Remain politicos, who are trying to overthrow a democratic decision.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You are too kind.

What I've noticed is that some regular Remainers on this thread have nothing but contempt for key Leavers. I haven't seen the Leavers on this thread pour such vitriol and scorn on the leading Remain politicos, who are trying to overthrow a democratic decision.

The fact is Seph, we know no matter what we say there's just no changing them.

They are like religious zealots. Their belief is unchangeable.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by pip08456

The fact is Seph, we know no matter what we say there's just no changing them.

They are like religious zealots. Their belief is unchangeable.

Quite. Sort of Corbyn-like but more vocal about their prejudices.

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by Mick

It's official, though I never had any doubt, our former coward of a PM, "Colluded" with U.S President Obama in 2016, to stop Brexit by blackmail with the back of Queue for trade threat....

What's the Russian word for "Hypocrites". ?

Лицемеры !!!

https://news.sky.com/story/cameron-p...rning-11423669

Mick, I owe you a big apology on this.

What Obama said had never made sense to me, right from the beginning. I made some comments on it on a site that I used to run:

http://www.elite-politics.com/showth...ull=1#post1624

I'll copy the relevant parts of it, here:

He said that "Brits would have to get to the back of the line" in respect to trade deals...now for a guy who race whores as much as Obama does, for him to utter those words was truly remarkable. He may as well have told Brits to go sit at the back of the bus / or "go drink out of that water fountain over there" (whilst pointing) if the vote leads to a decision to leave. Maybe I am reading too much into his comments here but it almost felt like he was telling Brits "you are lower than segregated blacks in the south in the 60's IMO". A disgusting comment from a President who is doing nothing more than attention seeking at this point.

If his intent was to help guide Brits to stay, he failed. Abysmally.

For the most part, I would kind of get annoyed at myself for seeing the same analogy - but be annoyed because I had compared nationalists to blacks before CR legislation came into effect.

I kind of saw it as Obama saying "you lost don't deserve to be equal - separate, sure but not equal".


So it was part of the reason that I spent a little less time on the site (one of the two reasons) for a while because I felt pretty bad about it? Why? Because I started doing the exact same thing - replying to pro leave / nationalist posters but only when I had waited a few weeks / put them to the "back of the line" effectively, for lack of a better term. I started doing exactly what Obama and Cameron wanted to do.

At the time I was just annoyed at myself for comparing blacks before the CRA badly, then I spoke to a few leave voters here and quite a few (all but one in fact) treated me very kindly and nicely. Then finally I realized that I was being passive aggressive / the one thing I hate. In treating the posters who I differed with as second class citizens.

I didn't mean to, but fwiw it is a leave leaning poster (Sephiroth) who finally woke me up to some of my bad behavior / made me realize that a lot of the leave side are not bad at all.

We may disagree some over Europe but at the end of the day that is just a difference over a political issue and even though I didn't seem it at first, I am fine to keep perfectly healthy friendships with just about anyone ; no matter what the political difference. I am probably better versed in regards to politics and law than just about anyone here....what I didn't realize is that I was turning into a politician, with my behavior here.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

<SNIP>

<SNIP>

I didn't mean to, but fwiw it is a leave leaning poster (Sephiroth) who finally woke me up to some of my bad behavior / made me realize that a lot of the leave side are not bad at all.
<SNIP

Just had to say

[Chloé Palmas]

You really did open me up to some of my antics here, I have a tendency to control the way that discussions go / see things ahead of time and the discussion gets the life sucked out of it.

So in that sense we all owe you a debt of gratitude.

xx

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Gavin78

Nigel Farage back in politics to challenge Theresa May's Brexit

https://news.sky.com/story/nigel-far...rexit-11475417

Nigel Farage is returning to frontline politics to challenge what he describes as Theresa May's "fraudulent" Brexit plan.

The former UKIP leader said he would be part of a battle bus tour by the Leave Means Leave group to oppose the prime minister's proposals......

My guess is his campaign will be launched the week the preparedness papers are launched, pushing those down the news. Not sure why he’s unhappy at how democratically elected government is performing. Sounds like he hates democracy and the will of the people. The people could have voted UKIP but didn’t, they trusted the Tories to deliver Brexit.

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by Mick

Not necessarily. There wasn’t a GE called when Cameron resigned. Plus there is that little issue of the fixed term parliament act and I think people in U.K. are getting a little tired of elections.

This is actually the biggest hurdle in getting somewhere. The FTPA ; another thing Cameron and Clegg screwed part of the Tory party over.

Okay so the way I see it...if May caves to the EU to get this Checkers deal, they will say no. She loses on that front. If they say no and there is a no deal scenario, parliament will vote it down. The UK will stay in the EU by default. (The EU will amend the A50 withdrawal, for that purpose). Labor will not back this current deal, so she can't even get it through with their support (in parliament) - every option she loses.

The only way round this that I see is if the rank and file turf her and a new leader comes in - he calls a new GE and the country has a GE. Yes, the FTPA is an issue but if a majority vote for a new election then the parliamentary rules allow for it to be called on a simple majority.

Which MP is going to say no to the idea of another GE? May is the only thing holding it up...I have been saying for over a year now that she is the issue and now finally everyone else is coming round to the idea....but you have a very short time to get this done. If she falls in Oct you have months left to call a GE and get a larger majority...otherwise a "no deal" exit will fail, and the UK will stay in the EU.

Her plan is toast. A no deal scenario is the only way forward - you can't do it with the current numbers in Whitehall, she has to go and the new leader of the Tories would be able to justify a GE. Corbyn is there for the taking now, you will win big, so long as you don't pick the wrong leader.

You won't leave the EU with this parliamentary breakdown.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

My guess is his campaign will be launched the week the preparedness papers are launched, pushing those down the news. Not sure why he’s unhappy at how democratically elected government is performing. Sounds like he hates democracy and the will of the people. The people could have voted UKIP but didn’t, they trusted the Tories to deliver Brexit.

There's the conundrum. A democratically elected government making a hash of the democratically decision by the people to leave the EU.

Strange that you say Farage "hates democracy and the will of the people". My reading of Farage in this context is that wants to make sure that the will of the people, expressed in the Referendum result, is properly respected.

[Gavin78]

The only problem I see with these top business leaders panicking over Brexit is all the back handers that have come from the EU once we pull out we'll soon see who is in my back pocket people are.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

There's the conundrum. A democratically elected government making a hash of the democratically decision by the people to leave the EU.

Strange that you say Farage "hates democracy and the will of the people". My reading of Farage in this context is that wants to make sure that the will of the people, expressed in the Referendum result, is properly respected.

Wasn't it Farage who said a 52:48 referendum result wouldn't be the end of the matter ? He's a hypocrite.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Wasn't it Farage who said a 52:48 referendum result wouldn't be the end of the matter ? He's a hypocrite.

So that everybody knows what you're talking about: Farage said that before the Referendum in the context of a 52/48 vote in favour of Remain.

Far from being a hypocrite, he was holding steadfast to his mission.

We are dealing now with a 52/48 Leave result which Farage and others fear is being subverted by May and Hammond.

The real shame is not the Referendum result - but the inability of the guvmin to deliver a decent Brexit. In present circumstances, my minimum standard would be a Canada type deal.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

So that everybody knows what you're talking about: Farage said that before the Referendum in the context of a 52/48 vote in favour of Remain.

Far from being a hypocrite, he was holding steadfast to his mission.

We are dealing now with a 52/48 Leave result which Farage and others fear is being subverted by May and Hammond.

The real shame is not the Referendum result - but the inability of the guvmin to deliver a decent Brexit. In present circumstances, my minimum standard would be a Canada type deal.

Ah I see, so some 52:48 results are different to others

They can't deliver a decent Brexit, it's fundamentally flawed. Damage limitation is the best they can hope for.

[Chloé Palmas]

Also Farage did also say that he would support the idea of a second referendum, even after leave won the current referendum:

This was in January of this year:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ferendum-video

[Dave42]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Wasn't it Farage who said a 52:48 referendum result wouldn't be the end of the matter ? He's a hypocrite.

exactly