Hamas Israel War

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

As does your unwillingness to answer his question, it works both ways.

Which one?

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I'll put a confected question to you: How many Israelis should be murdered by Hamas before Israel should pursue the eradication of Hamas?

Although not in direct response to this post, to a similar one I replied:

Originally Posted by jfman

Nobody disputes the overarching ambition, just questioning whether the slaughter of thousands of civilians and destruction of the homes/property of millions makes it more achievable.

If it’s this one:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

So, is terrorism the answer? Is it a justifiable 'last resort'? It's a vicious circle.

I don’t think it’s the answer. I do think it’s a justifiable last resort in some circumstances (no, not 7th October) against military targets or other state apparatus. I agree it’s a vicious circle.

The risk in not protecting civilians is some nefarious actors (Iran, Saudi, take your pick) will very easily bankroll future terrorist attacks with victims out for revenge and it’ll be easy for them to argue it’s both justifiable and necessary to move beyond my caveat above.

There may even be an Iranian niche tech forum where people blame Israelis for voting for Netanyahu, and rationalise targeting their civilian population that way.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

Which one?



Although not in direct response to this post, to a similar one I replied:



If it’s this one:



I don’t think it’s the answer. I do think it’s a justifiable last resort in some circumstances (no, not 7th October) against military targets or other state apparatus. I agree it’s a vicious circle.

The risk in not protecting civilians is some nefarious actors (Iran, Saudi, take your pick) will very easily bankroll future terrorist attacks with victims out for revenge and it’ll be easy for them to argue it’s both justifiable and necessary to move beyond my caveat above.

There may even be an Iranian niche tech forum where people blame Israelis for voting for Netanyahu, and rationalise targeting their civilian population that way.

One of your better answers in this topic.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

There’s women, children, and people detained awaiting trial for the heinous crimes of “incitement to stone throwing” and flying disagreeable flags.

At least they’ll get due process and a custodial sentence, at worst.

Here’s a glimpse for anyone that would hope for the same in a Palestinian governed state, what would happen to them.

Suddenly a few years in an Israeli prison may not seem so bad!

https://www.timesofisrael.com/2-men-...%20the%20trash.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

At least they’ll get due process and a custodial sentence, at worst.

Here’s a glimpse for anyone that would hope for the same in a Palestinian governed state, what would happen to them.

Suddenly a few years in an Israeli prison may not seem so bad!

https://www.timesofisrael.com/2-men-...%20the%20trash.

What about the due process for the 13,000 plus killed to date?

Originally Posted by Pierre

At least they’ll get due process and a custodial sentence, at worst.

Here’s a glimpse for anyone that would hope for the same in a Palestinian governed state, what would happen to them.

Suddenly a few years in an Israeli prison may not seem so bad!

https://www.timesofisrael.com/2-men-...%20the%20trash.

Not sure this is "due process"…

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/i...-oct-7-un-says

On Oct. 11, settlers tore through dusty streets, shooting at families in their homes. Within minutes, three Palestinian men were dead.

Israeli forces sent to disperse armed settlers and Palestinian stone-throwers fired into the crowd, killing a fourth villager, Palestinian officials said.

The next day, settlers heeded social-media calls to ambush a funeral procession the village coordinated with the army. They cut off roads and sprayed bullets at mourners who sprang from cars and sprinted through fields, attendees said.

Ibrahim Wadi, a 62-year-old chemist, and his 26-year-old son Ahmed, a lawyer, were killed. The funeral for four became one for six.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

What about the due process for the 13,000 plus killed to date?

The very definition of whataboutism.

---------- Post added at 15:48 ---------- Previous post was at 15:38 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

Not sure this is "due process"…

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/i...-oct-7-un-says

That’s definitely what those two men were thinking as they were being beaten to death and hoisted by the ankles up a power pylon.

[jfman]

It’s not whataboutery to point out Israel and due process for Palestinians don’t go as hand in hand as you initially implied.

[Pierre]

The point of the post was more about Palestinian on Palestinian barbarism, and not a Hamas terrorist in sight.

Cheered on by hundreds of spectators.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

The point of the post was more about Palestinian on Palestinian barbarism, and not a Hamas terrorist in sight.

Cheered on by hundreds of spectators.

Palestinians are still statistically far more likely to die as a result of Israeli bombing, or at the hands of Israeli settlers, than be killed for spying.

Originally Posted by Pierre

The very definition of whataboutism.

---------- Post added at 15:48 ---------- Previous post was at 15:38 ----------



That’s definitely what those two men were thinking as they were being beaten to death and hoisted by the ankles up a power pylon.

And it's equally definite that the two mourners murdered were thinking "well, at least there's due process here..."

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Palestinians are still statistically far more likely to die as a result of Israeli bombing, or at the hands of Israeli settlers, than be killed for spying.

I’m just interested. What do you think when you see that headline and videos that are easily found on this incident? I wonder what all the white middle class leftists marching with their Palestinian flags think too.

They’re nice reasonable people.

What a tolerant people.

I’d love to live in that society.

What an inclusive people.

Etc etc

[jfman]

Personally no, but extrajudicial executions aren’t exclusively a Palestinian trait. Neither does it mean the Palestinian people as a whole don’t have the right to live in their own land without being bombed out of it by Israel.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s a 100% legitimate question. Your unwillingness to answer speaks volumes.

I think it does. If you support the IDF campaign in Gaza then you must be able to sanction the deaths of civilians. For any rational, humane person there should be a red line here i.e. over what number is the response disproportionate? What number is too many?

The inability or unwillingness to answer questions like these is telling ..

---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You do like asking confected questions that have no value. It's an absolute need for Israel to defend itself, notwithstanding Hamas' cowardly use of the Gazans as a human shield.

I'll put a confected question to you: How many Israelis should be murdered by Hamas before Israel should pursue the eradication of Hamas?

There is nothing artificial or false about my question, it is very real and the fact that you can only answer the question with a question is revealing.

To answer your question which, by the way, is framed in an illogical form: Israel has been waging war with Hamas for years, since they helped to create it. No Israelis or Palestinians should be deliberately killed in pursuit of the removal of Hamas.

There were always another ways to respond to the Hamas attack. More considered and surgical ways. The problem was that BiBi was caught with his pants down. The most surveilled "border" in the world, manned by 24x7 monitors, cameras, drones, automated weapons systems allows 100's of Hamas militants through without alarms is very, very strange. Something that the world is yet to get clarity on.

He had to go in strong and hard to save face with the consequences we can all see. It won't save him though.

[Sephiroth]

@Ian

I note that you don't mention the extreme barbarity of the Hamas attack on Israel/ Ergo, Israel had to respond and go in hard.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

@Ian

I note that you don't mention the extreme barbarity of the Hamas attack on Israel/ Ergo, Israel had to respond and go in hard.

Some of your posts on this thread have been quite considered, Seph, but this seems distinctly at odds with them. Emotion seems to have taken precedence over analysis.

Whilst the 7 October terrorist attacks were barbarous, this did not logically mean Israel had to respond in a way that left 13,000 people dead. They responded in this way to try and save Netanyahu's power and not for the long-term benefit of the people of Israel.