School stands up for discipline and rules

[Graham]

Originally Posted by nffc

Fair point, but since when was it acceptable to choose which rules to stick to and which to break - and whether to be allowed to break rules if you think they're "silly" or something equally pathetic?

I didn't say it was "acceptable" for him to break the rules, nor that he should be "allowed" to break the rules, nor even that this rule was "silly", however I don't think that what the teacher did was reasonable.

All he needed to do was to say "ok, because it's your exams I'll let you stay *today*, but if you come in with those tomorrow you're out".

And if it is deemed acceptable, surely that would lead to disobedience, lawlessness and eventually anarchy?

Have you been reading the Daily Mail?? This is the sort of remark that they tend to come out with.

This is the same logic that starts with "zero tolerance" policies and ends with "three strikes" laws that result in people being given 20 year jail sentences for stealing a slice of pizza.

For more about the failures of ZT see http://endzerotolerance.com/zerotolerance_articles.htm
or http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/200...ero_tolerance/ for what happened when American Schools started implementing ZT policies!

Note where the second article says:

Psychologically, such punishments can be devastating. They offer little in the way of instructive value, and exacerbate students' sense of alienation and distrust of authority. James Comer and Alain Poussaint, two of the nation's leading child psychologists, warn that overly harsh punishment "either destroys a child's spirit, has no effect at all, worsens the problem, or makes it more difficult for you to work with the child in school -- he or she no longer trusts you."

For those teenagers already disengaging from school, suspensions are particularly counterproductive. During a developmental period when their most urgent need is to connect and form trusting relationships, these sanctions isolate them from the only community they may know. Susan Black, education research consultant, has noted that "these kids often interpret suspension as a one-way ticket out of school -- a message of rejection that alienates them from ever returning to school." The ensuing chain reaction is depressingly predictable: school failure, dropping out, arrest and incarceration.

Now what good is a form of "discipline" which is likely to create more problems in the future? Remember the recent thread about prison and reoffending? Wouldn't it be a good idea to avoid something which may well "lead to disobedience, lawlessness and eventually anarchy"??

Originally Posted by Monster Jedi

My son's school has a great new rule at his school. A card to carry on you at all times. Pionts deducted for being late , shirt button missing tie loose ect. 12 Points and you get a detention. Does this remind you of nazi's??."Papers Please". The school has turned to the Darkside. The teachers now have become power crazed. I have allready had a little chat to the headmaster. I did call him a few names. I did ask him to meet me outside the school to have a nice little one on one. But he declined my good generous offer. I even had a chat with The Board of Governors over other issues. The whole place smelt of raw sewage. The headmaster has his wife and even his daughter teaching there.

The School says it benefits the community ect. The school is a joke

How sick is that?????????????????

Very

Are you taking the p*ss?Are you really one of those parents that undermines the school's authority?Are you being tongue in cheek?

I hope so because if you are serious you are every teacher's and every decent caring parent's nightmare.

[paulyoung666]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Are you taking the p*ss?Are you really one of those parents that undermines the school's authority?Are you being tongue in cheek?

I hope so because if you are serious you are every teacher's and every decent caring parent's nightmare.

i think someone needs a reality check , and its not you coggy

Monster Jedi, you seem to have taken this debate way beyond its remit (and your actions seem questionable, indeed reprehensible; a thinly veiled threat of violence towards the headmaster is setting a good example to your kid?).


Back where we were, a child was denied the opportunity to take an exam, the result of which potentially affects the rest of his life, because he has the wrong footwear on. Whilst the child was maybe daft to breach the rules, application of a bit of common sense would not have gone amiss (Coggy, is that on the PGCE training?! ). As Graham pointed out, a quick 'don't do it again' would have enabled the kid to take the exam and marked his card.

Originally Posted by andyl

Monster Jedi, you seem to have taken this debate way beyond its remit (and your actions seem questionable, indeed reprehensible; a thinly veiled threat of violence towards the headmaster is setting a good example to your kid?).


Back where we were, a child was denied the opportunity to take an exam, the result of which potentially affects the rest of his life, because he has the wrong footwear on. Whilst the child was maybe daft to breach the rules, application of a bit of common sense would not have gone amiss (Coggy, is that on the PGCE training?! ). As Graham pointed out, a quick 'don't do it again' would have enabled the kid to take the exam and marked his card.

With all due respect he was offered a solution which he turned down.In his shoes(sorry)I would have taken the choice offered and sat the exam in the borrowed shoes.Seems to me, that the ,the,the idiot has his priorities all skewed and would rather cause a stir than face up to how stupid he was.I suspect that the 'child' isn't really bothered about the exam,had a low predicted grade and will never ever try to even sit it later at college.A perfect excuse to cop out in other words.

If he was going to get a predicted A-C grade,had studied,got all the coursework in,I'm pretty damned sure he would have accepted the shoes and got the exam finished and done with.Like many of those on this forum would have done.

Well, after lighting the touchpaper and retiring a safe distance, I think it's time for me to return to the smoking ruin of this thread. Sorry I've not been around much.

My 2p ... We have only Mr Chav's word for it that he has been wearing his trainers unchallenged since April. The school admits no-one has challenged him before now, but surely it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the boy is lying through is back teeth? And, even if he has been getting away with it since April, since when does 'getting away with it' for a period of time confer someone the right to ignore rules permanently? He must have known what would happen come the day he did get caught. Boys at my school were made to go about barefoot, or with no socks (if they were caught wearing white ones), but we all knew that is what would happen if caught, so most of us weren't stupid enough to try it.

Secondly, we only have Mr Chav's word for it that he didn't have time to get back to school for the exam. As Coggy has said, had he been sufficiently motivated I'm damn sure he'd have been there. I would have sat the paper barefoot rather than risk missing it. What we have here is someone who didn't care very much, who I doubt will re-sit the paper (I am quite sure that he only said he would in answer to a leading question from the journo that interviewed him; I know exactly how these 'hard luck' stories are written ), and who will add this incident to his long list of reasons why his circumstances are all someone else's fault. And thus the circle of chav life continues.
__________________

Originally Posted by Monster Jedi

Like my respect for the school

Well, I hope your attitude to the school doesn't rub off on your kids. What kind of example are you setting? Do you really want your children to grow up to be boorish louts who think they can always get their own way by challenging someone to a fight? I can see why you don't like the school's points-based approach to discipline. If your kids have already learned their behaviour from you I expect they will be topping the league table. Sad, sad, sad.

[Pierre]

Whilst I think the school have been a bit OTT. The day of an exam is possibly not the best time to enforce trivial rule.

A warning to him to make sure he is in proper dress for the rest of his exams would have sufficed IMO.

but when you get "psycologists" from Grahams post fawning over the poor little children.

Psychologically, such punishments can be devastating. They offer little in the way of instructive value, and exacerbate students' sense of alienation and distrust of authority. James Comer and Alain Poussaint, two of the nation's leading child psychologists, warn that overly harsh punishment "either destroys a child's spirit, has no effect at all, worsens the problem, or makes it more difficult for you to work with the child in school -- he or she no longer trusts you."

For those teenagers already disengaging from school, suspensions are particularly counterproductive. During a developmental period when their most urgent need is to connect and form trusting relationships, these sanctions isolate them from the only community they may know. Susan Black, education research consultant, has noted that "these kids often interpret suspension as a one-way ticket out of school -- a message of rejection that alienates them from ever returning to school." The ensuing chain reaction is depressingly predictable: school failure, dropping out, arrest and incarceration.

These kids have to be taught responsibility, thery have to know what is acceptable and what isn't, they have to know that their actions will have an effect on their futures and we should stop making excuses for them.

I did have to smile at:

Quote:
And if it is deemed acceptable, surely that would lead to disobedience, lawlessness and eventually anarchy?



Have you been reading the Daily Mail?? This is the sort of remark that they tend to come out with.

and from the article:

The ensuing chain reaction is depressingly predictable: school failure, dropping out, arrest and incarceration

It's not just the Daily Mail readers that can jump to conclusions eh Graham?

Originally Posted by andyl

Monster Jedi, you seem to have taken this debate way beyond its remit (and your actions seem questionable, indeed reprehensible; a thinly veiled threat of violence towards the headmaster is setting a good example to your kid?).

Back where we were, a child was denied the opportunity to take an exam, the result of which potentially affects the rest of his life, because he has the wrong footwear on. Whilst the child was maybe daft to breach the rules, application of a bit of common sense would not have gone amiss (Coggy, is that on the PGCE training?! ). As Graham pointed out, a quick 'don't do it again' would have enabled the kid to take the exam and marked his card.

I completely agree that the monster's approach to dealing with issues he disagrees with at school is reprehensible. However, do you agree that parents who merely argue with their child's school's approach to discipline can cause as much damage as those who threaten violence?

In my view, parents should not consider disagreeing with their child's school, certainly not so that the child is aware of it, except in the most extreme of circumstances. We may not always agree with the decision the school takes but its overall authority in the eyes of the children is sacrosanct. If that is lost, anarchy reigns, as is too often the case already.

[Monster Jedi]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Are you taking the p*ss?Are you really one of those parents that undermines the school's authority?Are you being tongue in cheek?

I hope so because if you are serious you are every teacher's and every decent caring parent's nightmare.

Theres more to this than whats been said. There's too many rules and regulations being shoved down peoples throats. Someone has goto stand up and say "NO".

If what happend to that lad about his exam happends to my lad. I would not hesitate in smacking that person in the mouth. It was plain wrong. What's the piont in comming into a school to sit your final exams and haveing to wear a uniform. It's not going to make you any brighter. It's not going to make you feel better.

As for being a nightmare. To parents no. But to the teacher's yes. And many thanks for that complement

It's made me feel good

First, why the "Mr Chav" insult? Immediate assumption the child is in the wrong. Why? Because we are at the moment in a frenzy of demonising young people, with no-one batting an eyelid at such pathetic descriptions as 'feral'. The whole world's gone Daily Mail on us.

We know nothing of this child's background and behaviour so let's not go going making derogatory assumptions.

I can well believe he'd worn these trainers without challenge for weeks. Look at them. How far removed from velcro strap black shoes are they? Not very.

Maybe he should have taken up the offer of a manky pair from lost property.... and maybe the school could have chosen to be a bit more mature. This was not a normal school day when such a move would be more understandable. It was the first exam. I'm sorry, but I think they were nuts.

Interesting points. But are you going to answer my question about arguing with your child's school?

Originally Posted by Monster Jedi

If what happend to that lad about his exam happends to my lad. I would not hesitate in smacking that person in the mouth.

That's not helpful in any way, shape or form

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Pierre

<snip>

It's not just the Daily Mail readers that can jump to conclusions eh Graham?

In all fairness, the links Graham posted concerned the (potential) effects of a zero tolerance approach. Not this one kid that was not allowed to sit his exam.

Originally Posted by Monster Jedi

As for being a nightmare. To parents no. But to the teacher's yes. And many thanks for that complement

It's made me feel good

Well as a parent myself, to me, you are a bluddy nightmare...And if you ever tried to smack me in the mouth I'd lay you out.

Originally Posted by Monster Jedi

Theres more to this than whats been said. There's too many rules and regulations being shoved down peoples throats. Someone has goto stand up and say "NO".

And are you aware that there are rules that state you can`t go around smacking people in the mouth if you don`t agree with them?

Originally Posted by Monster Jedi

If what happend to that lad about his exam happends to my lad. I would not hesitate in smacking that person in the mouth. It was plain wrong. What's the piont in comming into a school to sit your final exams and haveing to wear a uniform. It's not going to make you any brighter. It's not going to make you feel better.

Apparently not

Wouldn`t it be quite amusing now to see you get an ASBO barring you from that school? I generally don`t agree with them, but in this case I could make an exception.

Originally Posted by Monster Jedi

It's made me feel good

Mmmm, so your ego is so fragile you require threats of violence to make you feel good.

Perhaps you should consider boarding school for your children, after all, no parent wants their children to be raised in an environment that is adverse to their children's well-being, both physical and *psychological*. Although I strongly suspect that if this is the lesson you demonstrate to your children with regard to how to deal with problems then it is probably too late.