[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Osem]

I have to say that the output of RT and Radio Sputnik would be 'worthy' of Donald Trump.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Interesting "debating" style.

Please explain why "some just don't have a clue of politics"? I am also interested to know how a Modern Studies Exam in the 80s relates to the Russia of 2016 ..

Just some comments have a lack of understanding on the EU that's all I meant nothing more. For example:

All the red tape our Ministers have to go through to make decisions for our own country for example. Things come across their desks and they are constantly told they can't do it as they would infringe EU laws even if the things they want to do benefit the UK.

Regarding Russia. Anyone who thinks they are not still a communist country is wrong. Yes they have mellowed a bit but they are still communist.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Just some comments have a lack of understanding on the EU that's all I meant nothing more. For example:

All the red tape our Ministers have to go through to make decisions for our own country for example. Things come across their desks and they are constantly told they can't do it as they would infringe EU laws even if the things they want to do benefit the UK.

Regarding Russia. Anyone who thinks they are not still a communist country is wrong. Yes they have mellowed a bit but they are still communist.

Wonder how much of that is ministers hiding behind Europe because then they don't have to act, make decisions, be unpopular etc etc we've just given them a fat pay rise when they're doing less work than ever.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Chris

Russia ... or rather the USSR ... was a one-party communist state when you studied it in the 80s. Progression within the party was by patronage and disagreement with the party could be injurious to one's health.

There was a brief experiment with the democratic election of communist officials at the very end, but the USSR fell apart pretty soon after that.

Russia today is (in theory) a pluralist democracy, but intimidation of opposition parties and their supporters is rife and in practice there is no democracy worthy of the name.

I won't be surprised if you also think RT is a great news channel that cuts through the western propaganda to tell us what the world (according to uncle Vlad) is really like.

Your last paragraph just proves my point and I would be interested to know what led you to that conclusion. The point I was making was Russia, despite Putin's so-called democracy is still a Communist Country. Doesn't matter which Part get in they are one and the same. They just have different ways of going about it. Hence One-Party-State.

I now understand the point you're making but your use of the term "one party state" is factually incorrect and confuses the issue ...

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Osem

I have to say that the output of RT and Radio Sputnik would be 'worthy' of Donald Trump.

Indeed. One man's idiot is another man's genius. Donald Trump is very popular despite his views. Like it or not he feels he has the right to say it unlike our Russian friends.

Anyway, back to the EU. Yes we have a voice but who listens? How many times have we been voted down on things that could only have enhanced the EU? It's a voice in the wilderness and will get weaker if we stay in as they will see the UK having no stones and will walk all over us. Staying in the EU will send a message to them that we are happy with the situation and they will then ask themselves what all the fuss was about. We would have a louder voice by not being affiliated to anyone.

Leaving the EU would also allow us to grow our economy by negotiating our own trade agreements with our own rules. We don't need to follow the example of Canada, Norway or Switzerland to achieve this. Despite what some people think, Britain is more than capable of standing on her own two feet on the world stage and achieving what they want.

---------- Post added at 09:03 ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Wonder how much of that is ministers hiding behind Europe because then they don't have to act, make decisions, be unpopular etc etc we've just given them a fat pay rise when they're doing less work than ever.

Couldn't agree more. I dare say some of them do hide behind the mask of the EU and these are probably the ones who want to remain in that den of vipers.

Interesting about the fat pay rise though and them saying they don't listen to independent bodies who award such things. The Junior Doctors used that against the Government saying "No? You listened when they gave you an 11% pay rise though." Sorry I digress.

---------- Post added at 09:04 ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

I now understand the point you're making but your use of the term "one party state" is factually incorrect and confuses the issue ...

My apologies for the confusion.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Your last paragraph just proves my point and I would be interested to know what led you to that conclusion. The point I was making was Russia, despite Putin's so-called democracy is still a Communist Country. Doesn't matter which Part get in they are one and the same. They just have different ways of going about it. Hence One-Party-State.

But you said "Did you know that Russia is more democratic than we are?" Anyway, I hope we can all agree we would rather be living here than in Russia

[Osem]

If Britain votes to leave the European Union it could have a negative impact on the Nato alliance, a senior US military commander has warned.

Lt-Gen Ben Hodges, head of the US Army in Europe, said he was "worried" the EU could unravel just when it needed to stand up to Russia.

He acknowledged the vote was a matter for the British people, but said he was concerned about the outcome.

Out campaigners say a leave vote would not affect the UK's position in Nato.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35808955

Obama, Nato,... Who'd have thought?...

[heero_yuy]

By remaining in the EU, Brits have to pay above standard global prices for goods that come from agriculture and manufacturing.

But would we continue to put up with these high prices if we left the EU? I don’t think so.

We’d stop listening to French farmers and instead the UK would help struggling farmers in our own country stand on their own two feet while protecting our beautiful rural environment in different ways.

Prices would fall by up to eight per cent

This will not only cost George Osborne and the British economy much less than the current Common Agricultural Policy, it will keep food prices low.

If we decided to leave, the UK would simply revert back to paying world prices for exports and imports.

Prices of goods would fall by up to eight per cent.

So says Professor Patrick Minford*.

Read full article here


*Patrick Minford is Professor of Applied Economics of Cardiff Business School.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by ianch99

But you said "Did you know that Russia is more democratic than we are?" Anyway, I hope we can all agree we would rather be living here than in Russia

I did. That's how it was put to me.

[techguyone]

Why would leaving the EU hurt NATO they're separate organisations, plus given we were in NATO from 1949 (which for the hard of thinking is quite a while before 1973 - which is when we joined the EU) Not being part of Europe then, didn't seem to hurt anyone. Honestly the Septics need to know when to stfu.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by techguyone

Why would leaving the EU hurt NATO they're separate organisations, plus given we were in NATO from 1949 (which for the hard of thinking is quite a while before 1973 - which is when we joined the EU) Not being part of Europe then, didn't seem to hurt anyone. Honestly the Septics need to know when to stfu.

The UK would indeed still be part of those organisations.

[richard s]

Cameron came up with a good one stating that jobs would be lost - they are being lost right now mate - anyway if we exit then you will loose your job old bean.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by richard s

Cameron came up with a good one stating that jobs would be lost - they are being lost right now mate - anyway if we exit then you will loose your job old bean.

He lied about it to if we're talking about the same thing. It's from a 16 year old report that states 3 million jobs rely on trade with Europe. In the next paragraph it also states that if we leave the EU there is no reason to expect the loss of any of these jobs as they rely on the trade not the actual EU, that's if we are talking about the same thing. Well done Dave you just convinced me to vote leave, I don't like people trying to make mug out of me, not when I'm perfectly capable of making one out of myself without anyone's assistance

[heero_yuy]

It's the same lie that the Lib-dems, remember them, used to peddle and the TV interviewers never picked them up on it. Presumably they were happy to perpetrate the lie.