Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

And why, pray, did the Israelis kill those nice Palestinians who were just having a little game with them by continually firing rockets at Israel?

We need to have a grown up conversation about this sort of thing and stop engaging in these shallow and absurd comments. It’s Hamas that doesn’t want peace and deliberately wrecked the peace talks by this dreadful act of barbarism.

And yet only Israel is the target of the vitriol.

In the case of 17 year old Mahmud al- Sadi he was walking to school when killed and no we don't need to have a grown up conversation at all because you bring nothing to this discussion that hasn't already been said, no facts, no insights, no solutions, just more of the same old suck it up nonsense

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

There really is no choice when brutal terrorists hide themselves away in the population, using their own civilians as shields.

Yes at least Israel has the decency to only use Palestinians as human shields and they're not to fussy if they're children either

Originally Posted by Pierre

I’ll stand by it, and I’m not talking about just the cease fire.

I don’t think I could be any clearer.

If it wasn’t Jews undertaking this retaliatory operations no one would care.

When we and the yanks were doing it for over a decade we didn’t get as much, no screams at similar scale for a ceasefire in Afghanistan and Iraq and that was years, not weeks.

If it was two Arab-Muslim states it would hardly make the news here.

I seem to remember going on a march with a million others protesting about that war, don't remember seeing you there Pierre and what about the many Jews on the march, they antisemitic too or just self loathing Jews as the Israeli government calls them

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I seem to remember going on a march with a million others protesting about that war, don't remember seeing you there Pierre

Considering there was a million people and you don’t know what I look like, that’s …………….unsurprising.

what about the many Jews on the march, they antisemitic too or just self loathing Jews as the Israeli government calls them

Don’t know, haven’t spoken to any.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

It’s not the calling for a ceasefire that gets my ire. It’s the numbers and type of people marching through the streets calling for it.

As I say, if it was two Arab-Muslim nations at it you wouldn’t get 200,000 in London marching for a ceasefire, you’d be lucky to get 200.

Indigo and Barnaby wouldn’t be marching calling for genocide, “Queers for Palestine” wouldn’t be flying their misconceived flags, Socialist Worker wouldn’t be there.

It’s clear, only the Jews bring out the crowds.

Similar numbers, if not more, protested the Iraq war.

If Israel are concerned by the numbers protesting around the world then they could abide by the norms and customs that we consider acceptable in war. I’ll pre-empt “why don’t you ask Hamas to?” by answering now - I hold nation states that would claim to be civilised above to a higher standard and it’s only right to. It’s what is supposed to distinguish the two.

If a county wants to discard these norms they will, rightly, be condemned. There’s no requirement to run through every injustice in the world before arriving at the plight of the Palestinian people being massacred and survivors having everything they have taken from them. They have just as much right to live in peace in their own land as Israelis. If Israel, or any of it’s supporters, wants to deny them that fundamental right then there’s well known terms for that.

If two “Arab-Muslim” nations went to war (presuming the CIA isn’t financing at least one side) in the conflict it’d be extremely unlikely to be so lop-sided in outcomes or overtly backed and financed by the US with political cover from the UK or the EU. The value in protesting (questionable anyway, Chris had an excellent post on it) is massively reduced.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Similar numbers, if not more, protested the Iraq war.

Yes, but that was Western colonisers invading Islamic nations

I don’t think I’ve seen many protest Saudi Arabia’s actions against Yemen

Not much about Syria killing their own ( but ‘stop the war’ did jump in when we suggested getting involved)

When there were marches by actual Muslims against violence by Muslims I regards to ISIS in 2017, there weren’t so many Barnabys, Indigos and Tarquins marching along.

If Israel are concerned by the numbers protesting around the world then they could abide by the norms and customs that we consider acceptable in war.

I’m fairly certain Israel are not concerned in the slightest, and couldn’t care less.

I’ll pre-empt “why don’t you ask Hamas to?” by answering now - I hold nation states that would claim to be civilised above to a higher standard and it’s only right to. It’s what is supposed to distinguish the two.

I wasn’t going to ask that.

But a nations first responsibility is to its citizens and to protect them and itself. Above all else.

If you can’t defend your nation, you have no nation.

The nations surrounding Israel do not respect diplomacy, they do not respect talks, they do not respect any sign of weakness. This is arguably why we are where we are.

What they respect and respond to is power, Israel now know that diplomacy and talks are a dead end.

If a county wants to discard these norms they will, rightly, be condemned.

. By some, by others not experiencing an existential attack

There’s no requirement to run through every injustice in the world before arriving at the plight of the Palestinian people being massacred and survivors having everything they have taken from them. They have just as much right to live in peace in their own land as Israelis.

No they don’t, not if their representatives attack the Israelis and want to remove the Jews from the land…………then it becomes a straight fight for survival.

If Israel, or any of its supporters, wants to deny them that fundamental right then there’s well known terms for that.

if Palestinian Hamas wants to deny the Jews their fundamental right there is indeed a well known term for that.

If two “Arab-Muslim” nations went to war. The value in protesting is massively reduced.

Thank you, you’ve answered that perfectly ( I removed the bullshit) but the truth shone through…….blindingly.

[jfman]

Selectively quoting to misrepresent my comments to remove context is unhelpful Pierre.

Your pretence that Israel is under existential threat from Hamas, or anyone else, is a sleight of hand to justify what is clearly a disproportionate response by Israel. Much like the pretence that it was ever about self defence. And the pretence that anyone who opposes Israel is anti-Semitic. It’s lie upon lie upon lie.

Nobody in Gaza is a danger to Israel at this point, much like none of the surrounding nations are a meaningful threat given Israel’s defensive capabilities and the massive amount of American support stationed in the sea. Even when given free reign to mastermind attacks, while tragic, none represent existential threat to Israel.

If the whole premise behind your narrative is false you really are into the territory of revenge for the sake of revenge. That won’t make Israel safer. Or London.

By your logic - if you cannot defend your nation you essentially don’t have one - applied equally at this point is essentially a call to arms for Palestinians. Against Israel. You may rationalise this as the Palestinians not having equal status or rights to a state - they absolutely will not.

[tweetiepooh]

If Hamas had gone to ground in an Israeli area they likely would not need to send in the bombers as the reservists in the population, not to speak of the population themselves would have sorted them out. The Israeli police may have been needed to protect Hamas.


There is a difference hiding in a population that is hostile to you and can respond and hiding in one where some are favourable and they can't respond.

[Sephiroth]

I'll point out that a few thousand (maybe) Hamas terrorists kept c. 2 million Gazans under tight control.

All those of you who say it's not all of them (as in protestors) should look to the effect that zealots have on the meeker majority.

And particularly the effect that a mere handful of MPs representing Muslim-heavy constituencies is trying to exert on the Labour party and Parliament. What's more, they are using "British values" to do this.

The Hamas Israel war is the fifth (or thereabouts) where a military force is trying to wipe Israel out. 9/11; 7/7; Red Sea hijacks; 300,000 on our streets supporting Hamas.

Smell the coffee.

The only coffee you’re smelling is Kopi luwak…

Whilst the Hamas incursion was horrific and unjustified, it was not war, it was a terrorist incursion - the last war with Israel by other Arab countries was fifty years ago.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

300,000 on our streets supporting Hamas.

Once again this slur is repeated without evidence.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

In the case of 17 year old Mahmud al- Sadi he was walking to school when killed and no we don't need to have a grown up conversation at all because you bring nothing to this discussion that hasn't already been said, no facts, no insights, no solutions, just more of the same old suck it up nonsense



Yes at least Israel has the decency to only use Palestinians as human shields and they're not to fussy if they're children either



I seem to remember going on a march with a million others protesting about that war, don't remember seeing you there Pierre and what about the many Jews on the march, they antisemitic too or just self loathing Jews as the Israeli government calls them

Well, if that’s your example of an intelligent conversation, I will pass at making any comment on it.

---------- Post added at 16:01 ---------- Previous post was at 15:55 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Similar numbers, if not more, protested the Iraq war.

If Israel are concerned by the numbers protesting around the world then they could abide by the norms and customs that we consider acceptable in war. I’ll pre-empt “why don’t you ask Hamas to?” by answering now - I hold nation states that would claim to be civilised above to a higher standard and it’s only right to. It’s what is supposed to distinguish the two.

Has it occurred to you that applying your so-called ‘higher standards’ against brutal savages like Hamas, you are only guaranteeing that the brutes will win. Do you want this war to go on forever?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Well, if that’s your example of an intelligent conversation, I will pass at making any comment on it.

TheDaddy can “suck on that” as they say.

---------- Post added at 16:14 ---------- Previous post was at 16:01 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Has it occurred to you that applying your so-called ‘higher standards’ against brutal savages like Hamas, you are only guaranteeing that the brutes will win. Do you want this war to go on forever?

How does it guarantee the brutes win?

Has it occurred to you that a nation lowering itself to the standards of a terrorist organisation legitimises the targeting of it’s own civilians and it’s own infrastructure?

Countries around the Arab and Muslim world are congregating in China to discuss next steps. I’m not sure that outcome is a longer term positive.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh

If Hamas had gone to ground in an Israeli area they likely would not need to send in the bombers as the reservists in the population, not to speak of the population themselves would have sorted them out. The Israeli police may have been needed to protect Hamas.


There is a difference hiding in a population that is hostile to you and can respond and hiding in one where some are favourable and they can't respond.

You are missing the point of my question

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Well, if that’s your example of an intelligent conversation, I will pass at making any comment on it.

Funny I could've sworn I said I didn't want to have a conversation with you about it although I understand your reluctant to discuss the repeated use of Palestinians including children as human shields by the idf

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I understand your reluctant to discuss the repeated use of Palestinians including children as human shields by the idf

I’ll discuss it. The IDF are putting these Palestinian children in danger by using them as shields by attack from whom?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I’ll discuss it. The IDF are putting these Palestinian children in danger by using them as shields by attack from whom?

I'm not sure I want to discuss children being tied to vehicles, being forced to kneel in front of tanks to deter attack, being forced into buildings in front of soldiers, forcing a 9 year old boy to open bags soldiers thought filled with explosives (the punishment for doing this was demotion btw, demotion in rank for that, wtf), you could say these practices have changed since these cases were brought to court but have they, an Israelii columnist reported in 2022 that a family of five were pulled from their house in Jenin to act as human shields and five children were used in this way in May this year.

Oh and remember you weren't holding your breath over the use of white phosphorus, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International had plenty to say about it recently