Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[bluecar1]

Originally Posted by NTLVictim

I'm good at polishing and injecting some emotion, tech docs tend to be a bit dry, and don't grab you by the throat.

thanks i will pm you when i have some words together, i am working on it now and looking at the PI interim PIA and other, one thing that strikes me is the PI interim report misses large key areas of PIA's namely information gathered and how it is used ??

any others fancy helping

r. jones could you help with some information on how the system has evolved over the last month or so in response to queries and concerns raised here and on the bt forums, as you seem to have this sorted with your logs etc

peter

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by Cobbydaler

No...

No I wasn't referring to Bill Gates either, he is someone else I have contacted

Alexander Hanff

[icsys]

Originally Posted by jelv

Thinking forward - if BT implement Phorm, could BT do the following and still stay within the law:

Stage 1

Change the T&Cs for new users joining the service. These would include their version of what the Phorm/Webwise system does and could say that by agreeing to these T&Cs you are agreeing to be opted in to Webwise by default. BT/Phorm would then be able to say people had made inphormed consent.

We all know that many people just click agree without reading the conditions.

Stage 2

Require people changing or adding products to their service to agree to the T&Cs as above. For example, they will at some stage be moving people across to the higher ADSL2+ speeds offered under 21CN, this would be a great opportunity for them to effectively impose acceptance of changed conditions - accept Phorm or you can't have the higher speeds.


Going further, would it be legal for BT to at some stage to repeat the above, only making Phorm/Webwise mandatory with no opt out?

If the above is possible, surely that is a very strong argument against those idiots who are at present saying they are not too bothered because they will be able to opt out. Widespread penetration of Phorm in to the ISP market would put Kent in to an incredibly powerful position of being able to control the information fed to the masses.

I would say that they may do it but...
The ISP could fall foul of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (SI 1999 No 2083) - Regulation 5(5) 1. (i) irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract - if T&C's are changed without proper written notification.

It is also possible that if Phorm's interception of the ISP users web surfing is proved to be illegal then consent obtained expressly by acceptance of terms and conditions will render that contract void and the contract terms are not enforceable. A contract which cannot be performed without doing something illegal is void.

The HO suggested in their notes at paragraph 20 that the service should be provided with the explicit consent of ISP's users or by the acceptance of the ISP's terms and conditions, and paragraph 21 which states that the ISP's users' consent can be obtained expressly by acceptance of suitable terms and conditions. I think that any T&C changes should be challenged.

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by jelv

Thinking forward - if BT implement Phorm, could BT do the following and still stay within the law:

In short no, informed consent means it has to be explicit permission, also the new consumer contract laws currently coming into the UK make hiding stuff in Terms and Conditions illegal.

Alexander Hanff

[icsys]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

In short no, informed consent means it has to be explicit permission, also the new consumer contract laws currently coming into the UK make hiding stuff in Terms and Conditions illegal.

Alexander Hanff

Exactly!, I was just searching for that and the Unfair Trading Regulations.

The HO are out of order IMO for suggesting that acceptance of the ISP's terms and conditions is sufficient.
Stating that it was only an "informal guidance note" and "It should not be taken as a definitive statement or interpretation of the law", perhaps they should at least get aquainted with the law.

[Berealwith]

gosh is this thread still going......................????

Is Phorm in or something, Lol

[bluecar1]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

In short no, informed consent means it has to be explicit permission, also the new consumer contract laws currently coming into the UK make hiding stuff in Terms and Conditions illegal.

Alexander Hanff

will that be retrospective or only to new contract signed after the change is made to the law?

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by bluecar1

will that be retrospective or only to new contract signed after the change is made to the law?

Unfortunately it isn't retrospective.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 17:22 ---------- Previous post was at 17:18 ----------

I will hopefully be talking to an old friend and ex business partner of mine on the phone today or tomorrow to see if he can generate some more publicity for us. JD Frazer is the author if Userfriendly comic strip (a very popular tech cartoon available on www.userfriendly.org) so I am going to ask him if he can cover the issue in his strip.

Given the move by Canadian legal groups at the moment to make DPI illegal for advertising, it should be right up his alley and if he does do a strip the publicity generated would be incredible.

Alexander Hanff

[Rchivist]

Originally Posted by Dephormation

Could be right, looks like that IP address resolves to Houston (according to this web site).

Shame. I sincerely hope it doesn't come back.

they're not having much luck with servers - the Fasthosts side of the operation went down a month or so ago which alerted us to the fact that it was being used for hosting, and now the Houston side blows up.

I sincerely hope the design for the Webwise implementation doesn't require this outsourced stuff to be functioning for ordinary browsing to work.

[phormwatch]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

Unfortunately it isn't retrospective.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 17:22 ---------- Previous post was at 17:18 ----------

I will hopefully be talking to an old friend and ex business partner of mine on the phone today or tomorrow to see if he can generate some more publicity for us. JD Frazer is the author if Userfriendly comic strip (a very popular tech cartoon available on www.userfriendly.org) so I am going to ask him if he can cover the issue in his strip.

Given the move by Canadian legal groups at the moment to make DPI illegal for advertising, it should be right up his alley and if he does do a strip the publicity generated would be incredible.

Alexander Hanff

Alex - I know you've been working tirelessly on this, but if you have the energy, you might try to contact Liberty:

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org....ct/index.shtml

Don't bother sending an email, as they officially take up to eight weeks to respond, and unofficially they take infinity to respond.

Give them a ring. They are aware of the situation with Phorm, as I and at least a couple of other people have sent them a letter about it.

Invite them to the protest.

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by phormwatch

Alex - I know you've been working tirelessly on this, but if you have the energy, you might try to contact Liberty:

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org....ct/index.shtml

Don't bother sending an email, as they officially take up to eight weeks to respond, and unofficially they take infinity to respond.

Give them a ring. They are aware of the situation with Phorm, as I and at least a couple of other people have sent them a letter about it.

Invite them to the protest.

Might be better for me to use my contacts in ORG to do that for me, I presume they already have some form of relationship with them. I will ask Michael about it when I speak to him.

Alexander Hanff

[Florence]

OK all god you have been busy while I was on holiday I left on page 499 just managed to reach the last page now.

I will be contacting BT shareholders and after assrances etc etc you all know the norm the boat is about to rock faster.

[AlexanderHanff]

Welcome Back Florence

Hope you had a nice break.

Alexander Hanff

[Dephormation]

Originally Posted by Florence

OK all god you have been busy while I was on holiday I left on page 499 just managed to reach the last page now.

I will be contacting BT shareholders and after auurances etc etc you all know the norm the boat is about to rock faster.

You weren't on holiday in Houston, Texas were you?

[Florence]

Originally Posted by Dephormation

You weren't on holiday in Houston, Texas were you?

Sadly no went to a place with no internet, electricity or running water in the van had to collect from tap but fresh spring water is really good for you back to nature