Madeleine McCann

I prefer to hope that this young girl with her whole life ahead of her is alive i won't use the word well as being taken from her natural parents put this girl in a state of being unwell. That as i understand it is the wish of 100% of the people on this forum and that sentiment has never changed. But the reality is that the parents have some hard questions to answer and until they do this will not just go away. If there are members of the family reading this forum then the thoughts of us all go out to them but that also doesn't mean the questions go away.

Originally Posted by Chris T

I'm not saying that they weren't incredibly stupid in what they did. I'm just saying I am concerned at how easily some people slip from condemning a stupid incident - even a stupid chain of incidents - to condemning them as 'bad parents' which takes in far more than whether they think it's a good idea to leave their kids alone while they go to a restaurant that (they believe) is within reasonable eyeshot of the apartment...

In my opinion, what the McCann's did that evening (and previous evenings) far outweighs and negates any "good parenting" that they may have done in the past. They gambled...with their childrens wellbeing...and lost. It wasn't a "spur of the moment" decision. It wasn't an accident that happened while the parents were distracted. It was a cold, calculated, callous decision to leave 3 children under 4 years old, alone, in an unlocked, downstairs apartment. An apartment that they couldn't see from the tapas bar. An apartment where the chidren's bedroom was at the back of the apartment, overlooking a car lot. An apartment in a public road.

As mentioned many times near the beginning of this thread, it's not just the chance of abduction to worry about, but the chance of an accident, fire, etc. or the chance of one of the children waking up, frightened, needing the comfort of their Mum or Dad. But...nah, we'll ignore all those possibilities and go out & enjoy ourselves, without the kids getting under our feet!

It wouldn't be so bad if the McCann's said that what they did that night was wrong, or it was a stupid thing to do, but they haven't. According to them "at the worst, we were naive". They can't seem to bring themselves to accept any kind of resposibility for what happened to their child that night.

On the eve of the 100th day since her disappearance, the BBC news showed a report from Portugal. The reporter standing outside the apartment brings home just how cut-off from the holiday club the apartment really is.

Cold, callous and calculating?

Tell me, does it give you a warm glow inside as you hand down righteous judgement on someone you don't know and have never met?

Does it make you feel good about yourself?

Does it help you to think how much better you are than they are because you would never do anything so stupid?

I wonder.

[Gareth]

This article from the Daily Mail () shows just how close/far (delete as appropriate) the apartment is from the Tapas Bar. I believe it was referred to by Team McCann as like "eating in your back garden"

Do you really feel like judgement would be any kinder to us if we did something so incredibly stupid and doing it again and again goes beyond a simple mistake. How many incidents does it take for it to be bad parenting personally it does only take one incident that risks your kid in anyway whatsoever.

Would you be defending them Chris if the apartment had gone up in flames because they thought it was ok to leave those little kiddies on their own. For them to leave the kids in any sort of routine way was a no no you just don't do that these days i would love to have total faith in humanity but we all realistically know that **** lives and looks to do harm to our kids. I doubt very much if you have done anything like leaving your toddlers alone i know i havn't so yes people will judge and thats tough to be honest.

Originally Posted by Gareth

This article from the Daily Mail () shows just how close/far (delete as appropriate) the apartment is from the Tapas Bar. I believe it was referred to by Team McCann as like "eating in your back garden"

Which demonstrates an act - or acts - of magnificent stupidity.

It certainly *does not* justify a charge of being 'cold, callous and calculating'. If - and I mean, *if* - it ever turns out that the McCanns actually killed their daughter themselves, then, once it's all examined and proven in court, there will be opportunity to wave the pitchforks about and bay for their blood. But at this stage, that kind of self-righteous indignation just makes me sick.

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:54 ----------

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Do you really feel like judgement would be any kinder to us if we did something so incredibly stupid and doing it again and again goes beyond a simple mistake. How many incidents does it take for it to be bad parenting personally it does only take one incident that risks your kid in anyway whatsoever.

Would you be defending them Chris if the apartment had gone up in flames because they thought it was ok to leave those little kiddies on their own. For them to leave the kids in any sort of routine way was a no no you just don't do that these days i would love to have total faith in humanity but we all realistically know that **** lives and looks to do harm to our kids. I doubt very much if you have done anything like leaving your toddlers alone i know i havn't so yes people will judge and thats tough to be honest.

I'm not defending them. I am - as I have said, repeatedly, this afternoon - trying to establish what it is fair to accuse them of, and what is simply self-indulgent, self-righteous indignation on the part of some people who I am beginning to think get some kind of perverse sense of security and self-worth out of demonizing others.

All these points now the press appears to have turned against them are points i made 3 months ago and got flamed by some and applauded by others for voicing my opinions.At no point have they changed. I would not ever dream of leaving my 11 year old without supervision, Yesterday I went into town on my bike for 20 minutes and left her with my neighbour (who has a daughter too) for supervision. Now if I had gone to town for 20 minutes and left her alone in the house and something happened to her then there is no question I would be held responsible. I do not think the parents are to blame for what happened but they were irresponsible and imo poor guardians of the most precious things in their lives . Then after the abduction/whatever happened they start jetting off around the world keeping it all in the press . I was like wtf is the pope gonna do? search the vatican? and while they jetted off they left the twins. Now if I had 3 kids and something happened to one of them there is no way on the face of the earth id leave my other kids no matter what but these pair did.

I don't think you were getting flamed for your opinion so much as for being a little insensitive about your timing in offering it. The whole incident was rather raw and fresh as I remember.

Originally Posted by Chris T

I don't think you were getting flamed for your opinion so much as for being a little insensitive about your timing in offering it. The whole incident was rather raw and fresh as I remember.

ok I do accept that but I find it very hippocritical (pointing at the press here) at how they have turned now time has passed. IMO the right time to get it all off your chest is when it is raw not months down the line. As I said months ago showing aborance for behaviour like this could stop it happening for all I know over this summer someone may have read my post and not left there children in similar circumstances and who knows something could have happened someone could be saved similar. Of course we wont know cuz it was averted maybe. No one ever got any benefits by being wrapped in cotton wool its a crap world out there no point sugar coating it

[Gareth]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Which demonstrates an act - or acts - of magnificent stupidity.

It certainly *does not* justify a charge of being 'cold, callous and calculating'. If - and I mean, *if* - it ever turns out that the McCanns actually killed their daughter themselves, then, once it's all examined and proven in court, there will be opportunity to wave the pitchforks about and bay for their blood. But at this stage, that kind of self-righteous indignation just makes me sick.

Not sure if this is aimed at me. I'm not saying whether they were directly involved or not, but I have always believed that they were largely responsible for what happened.

That's not to say that I don't hope the child is found alive - I don't think anyone on here wants anything other than that.

My son will be 10 soon and we still monitor very closely what he does, where he goes, etc... The photo I linked to earlier is the first picture I've seen that demonstrates the distances we're talking about - and I'll admit I was shocked by how far away it appears they were from their children. I'd never consider that for my son, who is older than all of the McCann's kids put together.

[Pia]

I don't think the restaurant was even close enough for a baby monitor to have signal was it? Another alternative they could have used but chose not to.

This is a thread that is causing some raw nerves to be touched and while i do not subscribe to the theory doing the rounds that they killed the girl. I do and will continue to believe they have a case to answer for negligence and that that case should be prosecuted as it is done on a daily basis by social services in this country.

A great many people that do far less then the mc'canns did have to endure harse treatment from social services and have their parenting questioned i don't see why the mc'canns are any different to be honest. Fairness for all is what i want not a different set of rules for them and a set for the rest of us.

If that picture is accurate then to be honest that puts a whole new spin on things because i know i am getting old but it looks a hell of a lot more then 40 yards from their apartment and does not fall into the category that i would think anyone could call reasonable.

[danielf]

How times change...

I grew up in the 70s. Me and a mate of mine took the train to go and visit a museum in the nearest city (10 miles away). I was 13.


For my first vacation without my parents I went cycling with a mate. We covered 1000 miles and 4 countries in three weeks. I was 16 at the time and unsupervised. Someone mentioned cotton wool earlier. I appreciate that we have moved on (seat belts weren't compulsory in the 70s either).

Neither of these examples were commonplace back then, but they weren't unheard of either. As cotton wool was mentioned earlier, I wonder: when is it acceptable for kids to strike out and explore the world these days?

When they show a high enough level of maturity

Originally Posted by danielf

How times change...

I grew up in the 70s. Me and a mate of mine took the train to go and visit a museum in the nearest city (10 miles away). I was 13.

I think I was only a little older than that when my mum let me and a friend, and my younger brother, take ourselves and our pocket money off to Southport for the day by train. We survived.

Of course, we had spent entire days out of her sight from much younger than that, exploring on our bikes.

I know the children in this case are much younger, but even so - times have changed, and not for the better IMO.