Proposal for a "Customer" Panel

[Russ]

But Erol - they don't try to work with users! NTL have met with more than just the .com people, they've had regular face-to-face meetings with customers which acheive little or nothing! They get well-meaning people like Peter to arrange and chair the meets but what becomes of them? Something between little and nothing, I can tell you.

[erol]

Originally Posted by Russ D

One thing I learned from being an NTL associate and an admin on .com is that no matter what happens, NTL will do what NTL wants to do, irregardless of what evidence or ideas are placed before them. Oh yeah, they'll invite you to meetings, they'll feign interest in what you have to say but if for one moment you believe that your (this is not aimed at anyone in particular) ideas or proposals will make one iota of difference to NTL then you are very much mistaken. NTL will only listen to other ideas when it suits them, and that simply isn't very often.

With respect Russ that just sounds like 'if a first you do not sucseed - give up'.

Maybe NTL will not listen. Maybe they will BS you. Does that mean that users should not keep on trying to get them to address their issues jointly and directly?

Sure NTL will do what NTL wants - do users do any different? The whole objective is to try and find win - win senarios and convince the right people of the case. If you get fobbed off - keep trying. If they BS, you respond not in kind but with ever more reasoned and refined arguments. Keep on trying. That way you have a chance, however small, of effecting change. Decide that there is no point - attack NTL at any opportunity - slate any attempt NTL makes to interact with it's users unless it's on your terms - and you have no chance imo of effecting change.

[erol]

Originally Posted by Russ D

But Erol - they don't try to work with users! NTL have met with more than just the .com people, they've had regular face-to-face meetings with customers which acheive little or nothing! They get well-meaning people like Peter to arrange and chair the meets but what becomes of them? Something between little and nothing, I can tell you.

Well to me little is better than nothing.

So what is your suggestion? Give up on or slate any attempt by NTL to interact with it's connected customers? Try and 'force' them to do what you want?

Originally Posted by erol

NTL did not form a relationship with the users directly, they chose to work through the .com team. It was the .com team that went to (private) meetings with NTL, not users. No portion of these meeting was public to users, no minutes published etc.

More crap, we actually suggested bringing users into meetings (conference calls) ntl rejected the suggestions, the actual meetings in person we were not allowed into except Frank and look how they treated him. Their own EMPLOYEE!!!

Originally Posted by erol

I can not and do not speak for NTL. All I am saying is it is a bit unfair to critise NTL for trying to work with users, because they have chosen (with valid reasons imo - as a user) to not do so via people they have already failed with in the past.

You do not know jack about 'working' with ntl, I did not see ntl running and chasing you taking up your offer to be a 'spokes person' for the customer, no infact you helped to give ntl the perfect excuse they were looking for when they closed that site, let me reiterate that for you. 'Ten users or so of the site seemed to dominate the discussion, it cannot continue like this and as such the site is closing for two weeks while the service is reviewed though it isn't likely that it will return'

Originally Posted by erol

If you have questions for Peter I suggest you address them to Peter. There is no need (or desire on my part) for me to be a middle man. I have not made it personal at all. I have pointed out that NTL tried for over a year to work with the admins here, as users representatives and that they have decided that they are not able to work in this way with these people. That is not personal. It is merely my perspective on what has happend in the past.

Again you have no idea what it was like trying to work with ntl and that site - IMO they bought that site with every intention of closing it and silencing the criticism once and for all. They were just buying their time.

[Sociable]

Originally Posted by erol

Well to me little is better than nothing.

So what is your suggestion? Give up on or slate any attempt by NTL to interact with it's connected customers? Try and 'force' them to do what you want?

Maybe the "don't give up too easiliy" is what NTL need to pick up on rather than leaving myself and 9000 others in the lurch they way they have.

I for one am not slating their efforts just raising some questions about how they appear to have chosen how to do it this time. You seem to be the one making out they are the ones being childish and petulant about this forum. As this whole thread suggests some of us are actually trying to find a constructive way forward.

I really think too many people on this site are trying to read far too much into events - I don't suppose anybody considered the more obvious reason that Peter simply posted it on the two sites he is a member of ?

[Sociable]

Originally Posted by erol

If you have questions for Peter I suggest you address them to Peter. There is no need (or desire on my part) for me to be a middle man. I have not made it personal at all. I have pointed out that NTL tried for over a year to work with the admins here, as users representatives and that they have decided that they are not able to work in this way with these people. That is not personal. It is merely my perspective on what has happend in the past.

Can't help but be struck by the irony of this response Erol.

First time you are asked to put forward an idea from a user to NTL and you decline to help at all. Thanks bro very constructive. (NOT)

[erol]

Originally Posted by Sociable

Can't help but be struck by the irony of this response Erol.

First time you are asked to put forward an idea from a user to NTL and you decline to help at all. Thanks bro very constructive. (NOT)

I have declined to act as a 'go between' between you as a user and NTL because there is no need and I simply do not think that is a valid role for me.
I have provided you with the means to put your ideas and questions forward yourself. Is that not constructive bro ?

[Sociable]

Originally Posted by erol

I have declined to act as a 'go between' between you as a user and NTL because there is no need and I simply do not think that is a valid role for me.
I have provided you with the means to put your ideas and questions forward yourself. Is that not constructive bro ?

Yes and many thanks for that Erol I withdraw the (Not) unreservedly.

[erol]

Originally Posted by Dr. Plummer

More crap, we actually suggested bringing users into meetings (conference calls) ntl rejected the suggestions, the actual meetings in person we were not allowed into except Frank and look how they treated him. Their own EMPLOYEE!!!

If NTL have treated Frank unfairly then there are avenues for Frank to take to have that addressed, which I believe he is doing. I do not know what went on between Frank and NTL but my best guess is that Frank was no 'angel' in terms of how he behaved as an NTL employee. How NTL treats it's employees is not relevant to me as far as trying to get effective interaction between NTL and users going.

Originally Posted by Dr. Plummer

You do not know jack about 'working' with ntl, I did not see ntl running and chasing you taking up your offer to be a 'spokes person' for the customer, no infact you helped to give ntl the perfect excuse they were looking for when they closed that site, let me reiterate that for you. 'Ten users or so of the site seemed to dominate the discussion, it cannot continue like this and as such the site is closing for two weeks while the service is reviewed though it isn't likely that it will return'

Actually I do have some experience of 'working' with NTL as a 'consumer representative'. Before the .com site even existed I had been invited to NTL in such a role along with a colleague and I continue to 'interact' with NTL (as I do with all the other UK internet players in industry and government).

I wish you would make up your minds. First Neil accuses me of being the reason .com was closed. The an 'offical' statement from the team here says it was not caused by any indivdual - solely by NTL themselves. Now you once again appear to try and lay some blame at my door. It seems to me the only thing you are consistent about is that those that had direct contact with NTL on behalf of users have no blame whatso ever in the closure of .com. Nothing they did or said or ways they behaved could possibly have had any impacy on NTL's decision to close it, apparently.

Originally Posted by Dr. Plummer

Again you have no idea what it was like trying to work with ntl and that site - IMO they bought that site with every intention of closing it and silencing the criticism once and for all. They were just buying their time.

Well if all they needed was an 'excuse' there were ample opportunites before I made three posts in three seperate threads in the space of 20 minutes (all constructive and ways that users could work togeather regardless of any 'support' from NTL or not). Like when one of the admins of the .com site hacked NTLH. Or when one of the mods persistently abused his power as a mod at the expense of NTL customers. Or any other number of much better reasons than the one you suggest.

Whatever the objective in buying the site (and many cautioned Frank and the mods at the time about NTLs motives and were told 'we know what we are doing - trust us - wait and see') the fact remains there are still some within NTL that are continuing to try and find ways of working constructively with conected users. I give them credit for that.

Originally Posted by erol

I do not know what went on between Frank and NTL.

Just like you do not know what went on between ntl and us, yet you make stuff up as you go along as you see fit.

Originally Posted by erol

I wish you would make up your minds. First Neil accuses me of being the reason .com was closed. The an 'offical' statement from the team here says it was not caused by any indivdual - solely by NTL themselves.

I do blame ntl for they wanted that site shut regardless, they had not really played any huge interest in developing it. I joined the team in March and could not believe how little ntl did to promote that site. By June there was serious talks of closure and we was given a date. But the final nail in the coffin was due to the last few weeks of mayhem.

Originally Posted by erol

It seems to me the only thing you are consistent about is that those that had direct contact with NTL on behalf of users have no blame whatso ever in the closure of .com.

Correct, I am glad it seems to you. We did our duty, we helped lots of customers get the service they deserve, more so than you could ever of done.

Originally Posted by erol

the fact remains there are still some within NTL that are continuing to try and find ways of working constructively with conected users.

Correct but 'some' is nowhere near enough, NTL should be in leaps and bounds and actually listening to the people that matter to them, real customers. I believe one man tried to achieve this goal and his suggestions, his ideas all fell on deaf ears. I'm sick of repeating myself, but if they were not gonna listen to Frank (their own employee), they certainly were not going to listen to us.

[erol]

Originally Posted by Dr. Plummer

Just like you do not know what went on between ntl and us, yet you make stuff up as you go along as you see fit.

Show me where I have made stuff up and I will happily appologise for it. If you can not, will you appologise to me for the accusation?

Originally Posted by erol

Show me where I have made stuff up and I will happily appologise for it. If you can not, will you appologise to me for the accusation?

No. gone are the days I run around after you erolz, I have far better things to do with my time than argue with you. Sorry if that seems personal but you made it very personal tonight with your alternative perspectives nonsense.

[etccarmageddon]

Originally Posted by erol

I can not and do not speak for NTL. All I am saying is it is a bit unfair to critise NTL for trying to work with users, because they have chosen (with valid reasons imo - as a user) to not do so via people they have already failed with in the past.

but when NTL were running .com, Peter also wanted to have nothing to do with that site as well. and also when .com was up and running, various ideas for a user forum were ignored. so who has failed to come up with the goods?

In my opinion it looked very unprofessional to have a company run web site and a product development manager who openly wanted nothing to do with it. Whatever the issues were, they should have been resolved. I even asked Peter openly what was driving him away from .com and didnt get an answer.

As everyone knows, my feelings about this site and how it came about are varied and not rose tinted... but the fact remains... .com no longer exists or is in coma. That's the kind of choices NTL management make.

and did we not have a 'power users' forum where emails were invited but ignored. another example of NTL connecting with users.

Originally Posted by Dr. Plummer

'Ten users or so of the site seemed to dominate the discussion, it cannot continue like this and as such the site is closing for two weeks while the service is reviewed though it isn't likely that it will return'

thanks for bringing that old chestnut back! and what were these 10 or so dominatrixes wanting to discuss which was so terrible that .com had to close down...? I think it was the customer panel idea!

[erol]

Originally Posted by Dr. Plummer

No. gone are the days I run around after you erolz, I have far better things to do with my time than argue with you.

Like making unsupported accusations about me? I am not surprised that you will neither support your accusations with evidence or appologise for making them.

Sorry if that seems personal but you made it very personal tonight with your alternative perspectives nonsense.

Well I am sorry that by pointing out that NTL are reluctant to work with indivduals that they have already tried working with in the past and found the relationship to be unworkable / unsatisfactory, you see that as a personal attack.