anti americanism fashionable

[downquark1]

To sum up Jereks post, we can do what we want and disobey international law because they [sadam and extremists muslims] did it first.

It seems to me that the constituion should be altered to read 'liberty and justice for all ... on the condition of living in America and supporting the governments views' hmmm sounds like certain communist idealisms.

In that list you wrote off most of the world as 'we don't care what they say' isn't that what we've been saying is wrong all along.

I will repeat my question: 'when was sadam involved in a terriorist attack on American soil?'

[Jerrek]

Saddam was a threat to Israel, our loyal ally.

As for the rest of your post, I really don't get where you're getting it from.

For example, I very specifically stated that there is no such thing as international law (for us) because we are a sovereign state. Period.

The Constitution also only applies to Americans. Do you even know what communism is?

[basa]

Sorry for the late reply:

Originally Posted by Jerrek

You don't need a passport to travel to Canada. To make the conclusion you're making is just wrong.

Actually you misconstrue my post...I didn't make any conclusion...just pointing out Americans rarely travel outside their country, which limits their experience of foreign culture.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Also remember that England is tiny compared to the United States. We can travel all over North America and only visit two countries, but those include 50 states, and 15+ provinces and territories. It isn't like Europe where if you miss the toilet you **** in another country's backyard.

Think of our independent states as independent countries.

But in fact they are not...the different states are still American with American culture and only regional variations.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

It doesn't interest us. (" Foreign TV news coverage")

I know !!

Originally Posted by Jerreck

("They are fed an almost non stop diet of how great America is and are extremely patriotic")

And that is bad how exactly?

Did I say it was bad ? On the contrary I think it is laudable and wish it were more apparent here. (Unfortunately patriotism here is so often seen as 'racist' !!)

My post was not intended as criticism...just an observation as to why America seems oblivious to the problems of rest of the world.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

The whole point of the original post to which I was replying was in the context of the terrorists *not* hating the USA. If they didn`t hate the USA they wouldn`t fly planes into their buildings, it really isn`t a difficult concept to understand.

People like this need someone/something to hate. If it wasnt the US it would be another country, if they didnt hate the US for whatever reason they hate it for they would hate it for some other reason. Rather like the belligerent type you get in a pub who is spoiling for a fight and just looking for an excuse, if he dosn't pick on you it will be someone else instead. 'It really isn't a difficult concept to understand'

Your view of the world seems to be shockingly narrow. Are you honestly stating that the hate of these terrorists is something innate that would be expressed anyway, and that they just happen to have picked on the USA for some reason?

Yes, you have to be a special type of person to do what they did-see above.

You need to take into account the reasons for the hate, and as wrong as the events of 9/11, the USA pretty much had it coming for a long time, and they just brought it upon themselves.

I find your apologism for mass murder and terror disturbing

Can I just add....

I theink the reason the US is hated as much as it is, especially from within Europe is that the US insists that THEY won the second world war. Hey can I just point out to all the Americans that read this, there were a couple of other countries fighting too you know? When did the second world war start? hey 1939?? bloody hell a few years before the US entered heh. What happend specifically between 10th July and 31st October 1940?

Yeah Great Britain took on and defeated the mighty German luftwaffe thereby halting any German invasion. who helped us then? Certainly not the US there may have been a few american pilots that came here to fly but it wasnt official.

Then again jerrek the article you posted states that the Saudi's shuod thank the US because they stopped them becoming an Iraqi citizen, sorry but I understood that it was Kuwait not Saudi that was invaded by Iraq. And again there were more countries than the US fighting there.

The second gulf war, not just the US.

There is also a feeling of distrust because even during the Falklands war where incidently the US condemned us for fighting, there were rumours that there were American mercenaries fighting for the Argentinians.
Then there was all the hassle that we faced because we allowed US jets to take off and bomb Libya, did the US help us out there? Nope they sttod by and watched us take the flak.

Then we approach the Irish Americans, the people that convinced the "most powerful country in the world" to support the IRA. Thats Support the IRA in their campaign to blow up city centres, maiming and killing hundreds of innocent women and children and thats only in the England, god only knows what they spent the money on in Northern Ireland or how many innocent women and children were killed there.

We now appraoch the issue that leaves the greatest distastre in my mouth, the innability of the US troops to identify a friendly target before firing.
In GULF WAR 1 we lost a few soldiers because a US pilot ignored the NATO markings on a british convoy and open fired on them.
GULF WAR 2 well there were several incident, but I will mention the RAF tornado crew who clearly had IFF signals, coming in to land and were shot down with a patriot missile. The excuse.....the Americans were jumpy because one of their own threw greanades around the camp.

That is why a lot of people do not like the US in my oppinion and I am one.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Yes, you have to be a special type of person to do what they did-see above.
I find your apologism for mass murder and terror disturbing

Mass murder, battle for liberation, military campaign - The term that gets applied is not dependent on the act, but on who wins to write the history books.

The Mujahideen fighting against the occupying Russian forces are seen as freedom fighters, the IRA fighting against occupying British forces are seen as terrorists. At the end of the day there is no difference.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Mass murder, battle for liberation, military campaign - The term that gets applied is not dependent on the act, but on who wins to write the history books.

The Mujahideen fighting against the occupying Russian forces are seen as freedom fighters, the IRA fighting against occupying British forces are seen as terrorists. At the end of the day there is no difference.

Ok then, what do you call flying civilian planes into civilian buildings then?!
Stop hiding behind words and rose tinted glasses!

[Russ]

Can I just clear up any confusion, I have never said or implied that america deserved any terrorist attack.

This 'attitude' I speak of is the one which makes america feel it isn't bound by international law, that it ownes the world, that everything on earth needs to be done the american way etc etc. By all means be proud of your country, you are free to do that but with that liberty comes the responsibilty to be respectful of other countries and they way things are done there.

America shares this planet with other nations and therefore should behave responsibly and respectfully - only you (generically) don't.

[basa]

America IMO is, as someone earlier said, hated not so much for being successful (which in itself is open to debate), but more for their arrogance in that most of that success is derived from careless abuse of lesser countries assets (oil / timber/etc ??) and selective contracting to rebuild the countries they have smashed to bits.

I find it unusual that Britain is not hated quite so much, since most of the troubles in the Middle East were spawned in 1919 when Lloyd George decided to grab Iraq and Palestine (and set the seeds for the creation of Israel) rather than grant the area self rule.

Then again the US arrogance at first supporting Saddam's Iraq to defeat Iran who threatened their allies of Kuwait and Saudi, but then following that, a US empowered Iraq had then to be removed as a threat to Israel !!! Talk about pulling strings ?? USA then went on to to encourage Kuwait to provoke Iraq with economic sanctions with the inevitable result of Iraq attacking Kuwait (exactly what USA, Britain and Iraq wanted - but for different reasons !!) Don't forget here..Britain created Kuwait to avoid Iraq having sea ports amongst other reasons ! They now had the perfect reason to attack Iraq !! Further arrogance was the allies leaving large scale presence in Saudi to antagonise...guess who...Bin Laden !

The rest is well known !!

No US is not hated for success and patriotism, but for its arrogance and world manipulation for its own ends.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Ok then, what do you call flying civilian planes into civilian buildings then?!
Stop hiding behind words and rose tinted glasses!

I`m honestly not sure that there is any difference between terrorism and a military strike these days, especially when you see the way certain countries such as the USA and Israel conduct themselves.

If, as Bush claims, this is a war, then by definition 9/11 was military action.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Saddam was a threat to Israel, our loyal ally.

And evidence for that is....

Let's look at this hyperthectically.

If Iraq doesn't have any WMD as the evidence now suggests. And if we put the whole Sadam being insane thing asside. Then the USA invaded a country and removed it's government simply because it thought it was threat and had the resources to do it. they then gain money from the rebuilding contracts - this would make the US a conquorer. they now occupy land they have no right over and are making money from it's resources.

So if they think france is a threat will they do the same with them. If I think the US is a threat to international security can I try to overthrow Bush? Oh wait I'm not a state.

Hyperthetically if France say the US is a state 'terrorising' the middle east and are a threat to them, does that give them the right to invade the USA?

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

I have no idea. Some of them, no. Some of them, yes. Some of them are particularly eager to express how bad the western lifestyle is and that us "infidels" should all die. So, if they want to live in such crappy conditions because Allah tells them to, or if you would rather have your child die than to slaughter one of the quadzillion cows on the street and feed your child, whatever. I'm not about to force my beliefs onto you.

OK. Fair enough. The extremists in any religion are bad. You do seem to tar everyone with the same brush though. I know muslims that would never cause harm to anyone.

The point is, these same people keep electing numbskill idiotic dictators. WHY is it that Africa is incapable of governing themselves? WHY? Yes, now someone is going to call me racist, but I don't care. It is the truth. I do pity the people that live in bad conditions, but damn, STOP ELECTING and SUPPORTING dictators!

You are viewing the whole problem of dictatorship in a rather simplistic way. Not all dictators are elected. AFAIK very few are.

You know, I really don't want to tell the rest of the world how to live and what to do. I think I'll just ignore them. If we don't, people yell at us for unilateral action. And for U.S. imperialism. And other crap. Who are YOU to say to another person in another country how he should be living his life?

Aren't the US busy telling other countries how to live?

And then you get 4/5 of the world angry at the U.S. for not giving out free handouts. Big whoopie ****. If you want to increase your standard of living, stop electing and supporting dictators, implement a free enterprise capitalistic economic system, deal with crime (executing anyone that rape, murders, or kidnaps is a good start), and get rid of the religions in the government.

While I agree that some countries need to be tougher on crime, and while I am not relgious you should NOT ban religion from Government.

Like redistributing the wealth from first world nations to dictator's pockets.

Because the US government would *never* do that. (hint: Who financed Saddam?)

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

For example, I very specifically stated that there is no such thing as international law (for us) because we are a sovereign state. Period.

Sorry to be picky, but a Sovereign state is ruled by a Monarch. Last time I checked, Canada and America did not have a royal family. You are a republic.

The Constitution also only applies to Americans. Do you even know what communism is?

So the americans can kidnap and keep anyone else they want in their country?

Communism is a failed experiment in socialism (ie government owns and runs everything put simply), Capitalism is far better.

I don't think any other thread on this forum has shocked me the way this one has. The blind hatred for the United States displayed by some folks here is very saddening indeed. Glib phrases like 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter' and 'I'm honestly not sure that there is any difference between terrorism and a military strike these days' put some members of this forum in the same league as Jerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, cynically regretting the deaths of innocent people but inwardly feeling it is somehow justified. But of course, I expect some people in this forum consider Sinn Fein to be heroes of freedom as well.

It would be easier to cope with all this negativity towards the USA if it was in part due to a sense of pride in our own nation - hey, you guys aren't the best, we are! - but no, all we see is self-loathing and post-colonial guilt. Some of you people need to learn to get over yourselves or else why bother getting out of bed in the morning?

I am not an apologist for the American Way. I don't agree with everything they do. But to return to the title of this thread, it saddens me that it is so popular to be anti-American at the moment. There is not a little jealousy in evidence here.

Empires are the way of the world. We had one, not so long ago. Now it's their turn. At least the 'weapons' of US imperialism are generally Hollywood films and Big Macs. If we were facing down the USSR or China at this point, it would be concentration camps and T-55s.

Things could be a whole lot worse. As Jerrek is so fond of saying, deal with it.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

The Constitution also only applies to Americans. Do you even know what communism is?

Yes I do know. My relatives were anti-communist in a communist conquered country and therefore weren't allowed to work and thus to recieve money. Whenever the local governor wanted to look firm on the captolists they would be imprisioned without warning in the middle of the night.

A lady in America was put on the 'no-fly' list purely because she was the editor of an anti-war news letter. The FBI have refused to explain why or remove her from it. It would seem people are being penalised for disagreeing with the government and practicing 'free speech'