52nd State - Page 5

Ramrod · 12-11-2003, 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

Ramrod you would make a fantastic american.

I do not think communism works and they have done terrible things to my family. If it wasn't for the communist I would be in a much bigger house in Europe and very well off. However, this is not reason to right off an entirely idealogy as evil.

Why not? -the results it spawns are.

...ask most of North Korea!

12-11-2003, 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Quite rightly so! Communism is a obscenity that has been responsible for one hundred million deaths in the last century alone!

Ramrod,the CPUSA operates legally in the USA there are no limits as to its rights of freedom of speech and activities, downquark has been misinformed.

**Chris** · 12-11-2003, 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theodoric

Er, what's the 51st state?

Hawaii

Ramrod · 12-11-2003, 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gogogo

Ramrod,the CPUSA operates legally in the USA there are no limits as to its rights of freedom of speech and activities, downquark has been misinformed.

I don't care if it is legal or illegal in the USA, it is still an obscenity.
....but we digress.....

12-11-2003, 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Quite rightly so! Communism is a obscenity that has been responsible for one hundred million deaths in the last century alone!

You are quite incorrect there. The Soviet implementation of Communism was responsible for those deaths, not Communism itself. The acts committed by the Soviet regime are not called for in Communist doctrine. How many deaths has religion caused? How many deaths has Christianity caused? Are you going to claim that is an obscenity too. Two South American countries went to war over a game of football that cost tens of thousands of lives? You want to call football and obscenity as well.

Nor · 12-11-2003, 20:46

Don't you mean 51st State ?

Theodoric · 12-11-2003, 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by towny

Hawaii

Remember Hawaii Five Oh?

philip.j.fry · 12-11-2003, 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

You want to call football and obscenity as well.

Yes

*dons asbestos suit*

Ramrod · 12-11-2003, 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr wadd

You are quite incorrect there. The Soviet implementation of Communism was responsible for those deaths, not Communism itself. The acts committed by the Soviet regime are not called for in Communist doctrine. How many deaths has religion caused? How many deaths has Christianity caused? Are you going to claim that is an obscenity too. Two South American countries went to war over a game of football that cost tens of thousands of lives? You want to call football and obscenity as well.

I am quite correct.
USSR: 20 million deaths
China:65 million
Vietnam:1 million
North Korea:2 million( and counting)
Cambodia:2 million
Eastern Europe:1 million
Latin America:150000(and counting)
Africa:1.7 million
Afghanistan:1.5 million
The international communist movement and communist parties not in power: approx. 10000

So it is not just the soviet implimentation of communism, it is a worldwide phenomenon. Most of those people would have lived out their lives if communism had not existed. To say that it is the implimentation of communism that caused the problem not communism itself is like saying that paedophilia is not the problem it's just the implimentation of paedophilia.

downquark1 · 12-11-2003, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I am quite correct.
USSR: 20 million deaths
China:65 million
Vietnam:1 million
North Korea:2 million( and counting)
Cambodia:2 million
Eastern Europe:1 million
Latin America:150000(and counting)
Africa:1.7 million
Afghanistan:1.5 million
The international communist movement and communist parties not in power: approx. 10000

So it is not just the soviet implimentation of communism, it is a worldwide phenomenon. Most of those people would have lived out their lives if communism had not existed. To say that it is the implimentation of communism that caused the problem not communism itself is like saying that paedophilia is not the problem it's just the implimentation of paedophilia.

What are these figures? Death by execution or just deaths

**Chris** · 12-11-2003, 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

To say that it is the implimentation of communism that caused the problem not communism itself is like saying that paedophilia is not the problem it's just the implimentation of paedophilia.

A disturbing but chillingly clear illustration. Thankyou for putting into words something that I felt was wrong but couldn't get my head round.

downquark1 · 12-11-2003, 21:37

Quote:

So it is not just the soviet implimentation of communism, it is a worldwide phenomenon. Most of those people would have lived out their lives if communism had not existed. To say that it is the implimentation of communism that caused the problem not communism itself is like saying that paedophilia is not the problem it's just the implimentation of paedophilia.

How can you compare that to the idealogy of everyone being equal? You could say the same thing about religious wars or indeed any war. War is not evil just the implementation. Taxes aren't evil just the implementation. Privatisation isn't desiasterous for the railways - just the implementation.

I'm sure when Marks developed the idea, secret police and cold war were not in his plan.
Communism is not the evil - it's human selfishness.

12-11-2003, 21:40

What is the source for your figures? If you don`t back them up with a source you may as well post pictures of little fluffy bunnies, they are both equally irrelevant.

ntluser · 12-11-2003, 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Unlike others here, I don't want to assassinate him but I think that he should not be able to shut down half of London when he's here!

The problem is that his bodyguards tend to be triggerhappy and shoot first and ask questions later. I wonder what the situation would be if Bush's men perceived a situation to be hostile, opened fire and killed innocent civilians.

What's wrong with him flying to the military airbase nearest to London and being flown direct to Chequers by helicopter?

I'll tell you one thing. It will be extremely embarrassing for Blair if Bush was assassinated here.

**Chris** · 12-11-2003, 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

How can you compare that to the idealogy of everyone being equal? You could say the same thing about religious wars or indeed any war.

I'm sure when Marks developed the idea, secret police and cold war were not in his plan.
Communism is not the evil - it's human selfishness.

The idea of everyone sharing and being equal is a nice one, but you're right insofar as you point out that basic human nature means it will never work. I don't think it is therefore possible to distil 'pure communism' and somehow set it apart from somebody's implementation of it. Communism is an attempt to deal with human nature, so to attempt to evaluate it in isolation from human nature is absurd. If human nature is such that applied communism always ends up being enforced by totalitarian dictatorship (and it always does), then the basic ideology is demonstrably wrong. Ramrod's statistics ably illustrate this.