The gender ideology thread

[Sephiroth]

Just so you know where I stand (having ignored CF for several months), there are just two biological genders, as per Trump's pronouncement. Biological men should be forbidden access to female facilities and just as certainly not be allowed to participate in female sports. Obviously.

Genuine cases of gender dis-whatsit do need to be offered options that do not conflict with the above.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Just so you know where I stand (having ignored CF for several months), there are just two biological genders, as per Trump's pronouncement. Biological men should be forbidden access to female facilities and just as certainly not be allowed to participate in female sports. Obviously.

Genuine cases of gender dis-whatsit do need to be offered options that do not conflict with the above.

That should get at least 30 police officers kicking your door in and hauling you off to the pokey

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

That should get at least 30 police officers kicking your door in and hauling you off to the pokey

Six will do, and two police cars.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Just so you know where I stand (having ignored CF for several months), there are just two biological genders, as per Trump's pronouncement. Biological men should be forbidden access to female facilities and just as certainly not be allowed to participate in female sports. Obviously.

Genuine cases of gender dis-whatsit do need to be offered options that do not conflict with the above.

You are conflating two different terms: gender & sex. They are not the same: gender is a societal/social construct and sex is a biological definition.

Originally Posted by ianch99

You are conflating two different terms: gender & sex. They are not the same: gender is a societal/social construct and sex is a biological definition.

^ This. Though his error isn’t surprising. Political queer theory deliberately muddies definitions of words, making it difficult to define or discuss with a common frame of reference and allowing queer assertions to flourish by default.

I’ve become more and more hardline on this as I’ve read and listened to the debate over the past several months. I am no longer willing to allow that ‘gender’ as a construct even exists. Those who like to witter on about their ‘gender identity’ invariably do so by using circular definitions with reference to their entirely internal sense of self. As a social construct, it is very poorly constructed indeed. All they are really doing is dissecting and venerating aspects of their personality. We all have one of those and some are more pleasant to be in a room with than others.

I hold that everybody has a sex which is immutable and which is of primary importance. And everybody has a personality, which is to be cherished and valued as part of our shared experience of humanity, but nobody has an absolute right to have accommodations made for specific aspects of their own personality.

Once I might have gone along with calling a bloke in a dress ‘she’ just for a quiet life. However I now better understand what seemingly simple accommodations like that have done - they permitted genderists to take that ground and then move on to demand more, and now we are where we are vis a vis universities, NHS trusts and other employers getting fined/held liable for squillions, mostly of public (i.e. our) money, because they have been making unlawful accommodations for loud, often obnoxious, and almost invariably male, transvestites.

[Jaymoss]

There are males females those with a genetic physical issue ie intersex and then there are mentally ill. This is it end of will not accept anything else as fact but will accept those with the issues because they are humans and who am I to judge .

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You are conflating two different terms: gender & sex. They are not the same: gender is a societal/social construct and sex is a biological definition.

No I wasn't. I made it clear that in my opinion, biological sex governs. This "gender" stuff must not be allowed to cross the line where women's facilities are concerned. Protection for biological females is my motivation.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

No I wasn't. I made it clear that in my opinion, biological sex governs. This "gender" stuff must not be allowed to cross the line where women's facilities are concerned. Protection for biological females is my motivation.

Actually you didn’t - you used the phrase “two biological genders” which conflates the terms “gender” and “sex”, and you didn’t use the word “sex” at all. Granted, your qualifying term “biological” meant it was fairly clear what you actually meant, but I believe it is increasingly important that we use extremely precise language in this area to counteract the deliberate muddying of it by genderists. There was once a time when you could assume the two terms, when used in everyday English, were synonymous, but no longer. IMO the word “gender” is best avoided altogether, except perhaps when discussing languages that assign gendered parts of speech to inanimate objects.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Chris

Actually you didn’t - you used the phrase “two biological genders” which conflates the terms “gender” and “sex”, and you didn’t use the word “sex” at all. Granted, your qualifying term “biological” meant it was fairly clear what you actually meant, but I believe it is increasingly important that we use extremely precise language in this area to counteract the deliberate muddying of it by genderists. There was once a time when you could assume the two terms, when used in everyday English, were synonymous, but no longer. IMO the word “gender” is best avoided altogether, except perhaps when discussing languages that assign gendered parts of speech to inanimate objects.

I understand your point, but I was brought up to understand the equivalence of gender/sex.

The separation of the two terms is a modern confection to suit certain social/mental situations that really ought to be more separately named.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I understand your point, but I was brought up to understand the equivalence of gender/sex.

The separation of the two terms is a modern confection to suit certain social/mental situations that really ought to be more separately named.

And I agree, however at this stage in the game that’s a bit like insisting ‘gay’ means ‘happy’. Language changes over time, and usually that’s an organic process. But in this case there has been a deliberate, well-concealed political-social movement behind it, and it has sought to confuse as much as to redefine the meanings of words.

For my part, I find that if I ever were to attempt to construct a sentence using the word “gender”, I know exactly how a certain section of the population would construe that and I prefer to give them no succour. Hence my position is that nobody has a gender identity; everybody has a sex (which is binary) and a personality (which is multi-faceted).

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You are conflating two different terms: gender & sex. They are not the same: gender is a societal/social construct and sex is a biological definition.

No, that’s a recent revision of what these words mean.

Up until 5 mins ago, sex and gender were the same thing.

Given the madness, though, I’m happy to relinquish gender to the lunatics. They can have it and it can mean whatever they want.

I’ll hold onto sex, as that is immutable.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Pierre

No, that’s a recent revision of what these words mean.

.

They did the same with racism and that really grinds my gears . How somehow a Caucasian can be racist to another Caucasian bewilders me but that is another story I guess and if a thread it would last 5 minutes max

[ianch99]

This is an interesting read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history. This is also worth reading: https://www.petertatchellfoundation....ns-liberation/

As in many recent areas of disagreement, the lack of nuance is evident. There are many people who strongly believe that they are mis-gendered and go through tremendous personal trauma, counselling, medical treatments and invasive surgery to achieve the gender they fundamentally believe they belong to. These people are not "mental".

Society should be able to accommodate these people and, at the same time, ensure safeguarding for the small number of cases where security concerns are raised. You can argue that, in the past, homosexually was treated in the same way: homosexuality was considered an "unnatural" act, leading to punishments ranging from fines and imprisonment to public shaming and even death. Yet, today, it is part of mainstream society.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by ianch99

This is an interesting read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history. This is also worth reading: https://www.petertatchellfoundation....ns-liberation/

As in many recent areas of disagreement, the lack of nuance is evident. There are many people who strongly believe that they are mis-gendered and go through tremendous personal trauma, counselling, medical treatments and invasive surgery to achieve the gender they fundamentally believe they belong to. These people are not "mental".

Society should be able to accommodate these people and, at the same time, ensure safeguarding for the small number of cases where security concerns are raised. You can argue that, in the past, homosexually was treated in the same way: homosexuality was considered an "unnatural" act, leading to punishments ranging from fines and imprisonment to public shaming and even death. Yet, today, it is part of mainstream society.

That logic is dangerous.
Delusion is a mental illness so how can you say those who strongly believe that they are mis-gendered are not deluded and all that trauma a result of the mental illness.

What comes next down Woke Street? Understanding of Paedophiles?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

As in many recent areas of disagreement, the lack of nuance is evident. There are many people who strongly believe that they are mis-gendered and go through tremendous personal trauma, counselling, medical treatments and invasive surgery to achieve the gender they fundamentally believe they belong to. These people are not "mental".

They're not "mental" but they have a psychological disorder, that they should receive support and counselling for to try and navigate their way through it.

They should not be told and /or affirmed, off the bat, that yes you are definitely in the wrong body...oh and here's a load of drugs that will stop your sexual development, and here's a load of hormones that will change your body chemistry and as a finale, here's some surgery so we can irreversibly mutilate your body.

If someone with anorexia came into a doctors/ psychiatrists office, do you think the first words out their mouths would be "oh yes, you're definitely too fat, I suugest you lose more weight"?