Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah

Originally Posted by Osem

Dunno, some very dodgy types amongst their ranks. They all seem to suffer from selective amnesia and talk a load of Balls most of the time...

Ms Cooper especially. She gets it at the breakfast table.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

So we are all agreed that there is a problem defining socialism & communism and where one becomes the other...
This problem has been pointed out by our left wing leaning members and has bogged the thread down nicely.
This reminds me of the times we discussed the perils of unfettered immigration and it's effects on the social fabric of Britain/England......the same thing happened there as our left wingers immediately challenged us to define what Britishness/Englishness is......thereby bogging down the discussion and shifting it away from the real topic

Definitions are important. Just because it may be difficult to find a single point where a extreme form of socialism becomes communism doesn't mean they're not different. The world isn't that black and white and that isn't a left-wing trick to make things difficult, it's just how the world works. Things are complicated.

People were saying people on the left love to control and that the left were responsible for the deaths of 100 million people. Left = socialism = communism = Stalin seems to be the formula that people are trying to advocate. If you're on the left these are the things that you do or the consequences of what you believe.

That is nasty and it is wrong. It's a sick way to characterise people who disagree with you.

The "left wing leaning members" are trying to point that socialism does not mean communism and doesn't have to led to communism. That there are many examples of countries with socialist tendencies that have not succumbed to communism. Also that totalitarianism/fascism is not just the end of the left wing scale but can exist irrespective of the political learnings of the oppressive administration. It's a form of Government control that can be exercised often by people with extremest political views.

In the end those the discussion of the extremes is pointless because no one is really advocating communism here. We're talking about control and as I pointed out towards the start, this government has been just as authoritarian as the last so the notion that it's a Labour trend is simply wrong.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Chris

Ms Cooper especially. She gets it at the breakfast table.

'Gets it??!!!'

I reckon they deserve eachother tbh.

Originally Posted by Osem

'Gets it??!!!'

I reckon they deserve eachother tbh.

Yes, in many ways she is full of Balls.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Damien

Left = socialism = communism = Stalin seems to be the formula that people are trying to advocate.

Of course that's not always the case. I completely agree with you there.
However, one should be on guard against communism sneaking in using the thin end of the wedge, so to speak.
A quick google throws out some interesting biographical details about many labour members:
http://pol-check.blogspot.co.uk/2009...ew-labour.html

The Observer, August 25, 2002 The old communists of New Labour by Peter Oborne:
(clip) The influence of the Communist Party on New Labour has been neglected. One day it will be an important subject for a dissertation or PhD by a university graduate. It is not merely the case that a significant number of figures in the Government machine - John Reid, David Triesman, Peter Mandelson, Charlie Whelan to name a few - belonged to the Communist Party of Great Britain in all its King Street grandeur. Many others - Stephen Byers and Alan Milburn among them - were connected in one way or another with the obscure sub-Marxist organisations that abounded in the 1970s, doing their best to tear down capitalism.

.......they were (?still are) as red as could be......now one could argue that they were younger then and saw the eror of their ways and turned away from communism/marxism etc., or one could say that, just possibly, they recognised that they wouldn't get to positions of power without 'toning down' their stated ideologies......so they defaulted to socialism. Who knows where their true loyalties still lie?

edit.......
I wonder if a similar quick trawl of conservative mp's backgrounds would produce a similar level of extreme right wing affiliations & memberships in their pasts......I suspect not.

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Damien

No. We're not talking about competence. We're talking about control. This Government wants a database of all your communications activity and wants secret courts. This despite their lack of 'socialism'.

Yes,and they want these things cause they've actually moved to left when it comes to privacy and individual rights.The Tories feel they must be more like Labour to win elections,something they now pay a high price for.

Originally Posted by Damien

Porn ban explored by this government, database by both governments, minimum price for drink by both governments. It's hard to see what is only left wing about this.

Also the remit of Government is what you can vote for and people with a different opinion on that from you are not commie-nazis angling for a oppressive genocide state.

Like I said,the Tories unfortunately are moving more towards the left by entertaining such policies....
You really do have to show me though where I said that people who vote for the left are Commie-Nazis.We were discussing Socialism and and I gave examples of what it can lead to and next you know I've said Labour supporters or Lefties support Genocide,which of course I never did,but nice smear anyway.

Originally Posted by Damien

Again that isn't what I said. Nice strawman though. Are you just reading off Alex Jones' website?

There's no need to read off some website... I've heard of Alex Jones but I'm not sure what it is he does or doesn't do. I can't even be bothered to look it up.

My understanding of freedom comes from having had a German step-dad and seeing his Dad,who fought in WW 2, being a complete wreck of a human being and his wife,sons and daughters trying to deal the fallout of that and the misery it has caused in his family.
We had family friends in East Germany whom we visited 3 or 4 times who were one of a very,very few select people who were actually allowed to have their own enterprise,a launderette. I saw the deprivation,how miserable many people were and all the restrictions the state laid upon them with no good reason other than ideology.... the wonders of socialism. I suggest you go visit a socialist state,it'll be an eye-opener.

Oh,and before you come up with the Scandinavian countries again,I'll share something with you.
I've lived in Norway and Germany for a good while,and these countries are quite social,especially Norway.... at least if you look at it from the outside. The difference to Britain is that although the programs are generous their work ethic is almost second-to-none. Being on the dole for no reason is almost despised and the ethic is to work very hard and provide yourself for what you want,and not rely on the state to hand it to you. That is why they can afford such generous state handouts. Their model works because they have a different mentality,and a bit of Oil doesn't hurt either.

Originally Posted by Damien

Oh I didn't know you spoke to someone from a communist country. The only problem is I went to America where they're capitalist and someone there told me that capitalism is the first step to fascism and, if you look it up, it's obvious. Also this guy was an capitalist .

funny you should say that,because what we have in America and most of the West isn't really Capitalism but Corporatism. I've said before I'm against handouts to companies as well,and to people only when really in need.
I think all of us could do a lot more to help ourselves and those around us.

---------- Post added at 16:23 ---------- Previous post was at 16:05 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

Definitions are important. Just because it may be difficult to find a single point where a extreme form of socialism becomes communism doesn't mean they're not different. The world isn't that black and white and that isn't a left-wing trick to make things difficult, it's just how the world works. Things are complicated.

Yep,things are complicated.

Originally Posted by Damien

People were saying people on the left love to control and that the left were responsible for the deaths of 100 million people. Left = socialism = communism = Stalin seems to be the formula that people are trying to advocate. If you're on the left these are the things that you do or the consequences of what you believe.

Left-leaning,socialist and communist states control more than those with capitalist,Liberal values,FACT.
Also,we would agree that Communism is a form of left-wing ideology,correct? So yes,part of the left are responsible for over 100 million dead.

Originally Posted by Damien

That is nasty and it is wrong. It's a sick way to characterise people who disagree with you.

No,what's nasty,sick and wrong is to see members on this forum playing down the victim's of left-wing policies,of which there are plenty.

Originally Posted by Damien

The "left wing leaning members" are trying to point that socialism does not mean communism and doesn't have to led to communism. That there are many examples of countries with socialist tendencies that have not succumbed to communism. Also that totalitarianism/fascism is not just the end of the left wing scale but can exist irrespective of the political learnings of the oppressive administration. It's a form of Government control that can be exercised often by people with extremest political views.

No,what the left-wing members are doing is trying to defend the indefensible.

Originally Posted by Damien

In the end those the discussion of the extremes is pointless because no one is really advocating communism here. We're talking about control and as I pointed out towards the start, this government has been just as authoritarian as the last so the notion that it's a Labour trend is simply wrong.

The left love control,always have and always will... sad to see how quickly people forget about Labour's past deeds.

---------- Post added at 16:27 ---------- Previous post was at 16:23 ----------

Originally Posted by Ramrod

So we are all agreed that there is a problem defining socialism & communism and where one becomes the other...
This problem has been pointed out by our left wing leaning members and has bogged the thread down nicely.
This reminds me of the times we discussed the perils of unfettered immigration and it's effects on the social fabric of Britain/England......the same thing happened there as our left wingers immediately challenged us to define what Britishness/Englishness is......thereby bogging down the discussion and shifting it away from the real topic
I don't think it's a deliberate ploy, I suspect it's a left wing knee jerk reaction to an uncomfortable topic.

More reading:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Tyranny-Cl...mm_kin_title_0

That's exactly what it is...

Originally Posted by Will21st

Yes,and they want these things cause they've actually moved to left when it comes to privacy and individual rights.The Tories feel they must be more like Labour to win elections,something they now pay a high price for.

So basically even if a party that is right of centre and they advocate authoritarian policies then they are also left wing. So I can't really ever show an example of a right-wing administration enacting illiberal policies because they'll also be examples of a right-wing government that has moved left. You have again simply tried, wrongly, to equate authoritarian with the left alone. I cannot ever refute that because examples I give of authoritarian regimes on the right will be dismissed as socialism.

Socialist policies tend to concern themselves with the provision of services for citizens at the expense of higher tax. That's quite simplistic but it's generally the case. I haven't seen many socialists who advocate for a police state. Indeed the more liberal organisations in this country are opposed to these measures. Usually they're called 'liberal do-gooders'. It's new to me that liberals are the ones who call for DNA and Internet databases, increased CCTV and secret courts.

Let's look at two examples. David Davies, a Conservative, and George Galloway a far-left liberal. These two agree on almost nothing but what does unite them is opposition to measures such as the Internet Database and ID Cards. This is because whilst their at opposite ends of the traditional left/right spectrum they're at similar ends of the libertarian/authoritarian spectrum.

You can be on the left and a libertarian and be on the right and authoritarian and vise-versa. Authoritarianism is not a result of socialism.

You really do have to show me though where I said that people who vote for the left are Commie-Nazis.We were discussing Socialism and and I gave examples of what it can lead to and next you know I've said Labour supporters or Lefties support Genocide,which of course I never did,but nice smear anyway.

I didn't name you. I said people. It was Ramrod who said the left were responsible for the deaths of 100 million people.

funny you should say that,because what we have in America and most of the West isn't really Capitalism but Corporatism. I've said before I'm against handouts to companies as well,and to people only when really in need.
I think all of us could do a lot more to help ourselves and those around us.

America is interesting too. They've detained people without trial for years, they've tortured people, they've had wire-taps without warrants, they've reserved the right to kill people abroad. Are they now left-wing too?

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Will21st

<snip>
The left love control,always have and always will... sad to see how quickly people forget about Labour's past deeds.

Given your international perspective then, I'm sure that you will also agree that Labour (in essentially a 2 party state) is not necessarily the best or a representative example of left wing politics.

Originally Posted by Will21st

No,what's nasty,sick and wrong is to see members on this forum playing down the victim's of left-wing policies,of which there are plenty..

Which victims of which policies?

I want to know which policies exactly are responsible for the murder of 100 million people.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Damien

I want to know which policies exactly are responsible for the murder of 100 million people.

Read the book (the black book of communism), it lists which communist/marxist/maoist 'governments' were responsible for what deaths (and where/when)

[Ramrod]

Germany is currently home to around 249,000 migrants from Bulgaria and Romania
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-for-that.html

German cities have seen a six-fold increase in migration from Bulgaria and Romania since the two countries joined the EU in 2007. Last week Germany once again successfully pressured the EU to delay a decision on allowing both countries into the Schengen passport-free zone, responding to fears over the effects of flinging open borders to countries known for high levels of corruption and organised crime.

[Osem]

What you mean it's not only xenophobic, bigoted, Daily Heil reading, little Englanders who're worried about this???!!!!

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Germany is currently home to around 249,000 migrants from Bulgaria and Romania
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-for-that.html

They will be here soon thanks to the EU, then they will get the full package, free house, full benefits, child benefits that are sent back to there home country, access to our health care.

And coming soon to a cash point near you free cash machine withdraws via there handy cam and pin logging system.

But hey the supporters of the EU don't mind all that

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Germany is currently home to around 249,000 migrants from Bulgaria and Romania
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-for-that.html

Couldn't happen to a nicer country

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Sirius

They will be here soon thanks to the EU, then they will get the full package, free house, full benefits, child benefits that are sent back to there home country, access to our health care.

And coming soon to a cash point near you free cash machine withdraws via there handy cam and pin logging system.

But hey the supporters of the EU don't mind all that

.... and of course any suggestion whatsoever that certain crimes may be prevalent in certain communities is a sure sign of rabid xenophobia...