2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester

[Pierre]

Not everybody in the police would be up to the task of handling a fire arm.

Police should not be armed unilaterily.

I think the present system of Armed Response Units is the right balance.

Give them batons, pepper spray, even tasers - but not guns.

Originally Posted by Derek

Nonsense. In Peels day the original officers were routinely armed with a sword and firearm, until relatively recently officers on night duty could sign out a gun and arm themselves.

And in a previous thread the number of authorised firearms officers was shown, it wasn't a lot at all.



He was never charged, they were still gathering evidence.



It might be callous of me but I'd prefer that than having two dead officers, from an ambush point of view they might still have died but at least they would have had a chance.



Eh? When was this?



And how long might that be. Struggling with an axe man waiting for backup is not fun. I've been in that position and firearms officers could easily be 1/2 hour away, that's a long time to run round a car in circles.

the american case recently its posted here somewhere

You will be ok you do your running :-)

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Not everybody in the police would be up to the task of handling a fire arm.

Are you saying the public in the UK (let's not forget the Police are all members of the public) are so useless they can't be trusted the same way virtually every other country in the world is? That a Police recruit in England, Wales and Scotland is less capable than one in Northern Ireland?

The army manage to train 16 year olds to handle pistols, rifles and heavier weaponry quite well, why would a Police officer, older and with more life experience be any less safe?

[Vieil Homme]

Originally Posted by Derek

the number of authorised firearms officers was shown, it wasn't a lot at all.

When we had an armed raid this way in the town there were so many armed police officers, I didn't know we had so many police let alone armed Police.

Regarding Dale Cregan being charged I must have misread the article as I can only find he was arrested now.

It would now seem Cregan shot the wrong person and then took the father out. Having to deal with guns is bad but now they are throwing grenades.

until relatively recently officers on night duty could sign out a gun and arm themselves.

Did they not hold a firearms ticket that not all officers would hold? My brother in law held a firearms ticket in the Met but never had cause to hold or use a gun in service.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Vieil Homme

Did they not hold a firearms ticket that not all officers would hold? My brother in law held a firearms ticket in the Met but never had cause to hold or use a gun in service.

Yep, it was a bit more relaxed then and as long as you could show you knew which end went bang was enough to get a firearm checked out in some cases.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/se...er-gun-weapons

According to the latest figures, in 2010-11 a total of 6,653 officers were authorised to carry weapons, a decrease of 326 (5%) on the previous year. There are around 140,000 officers in England and Wales.

Not that many, a large chunk of them will be in the Met so even less for the rest of the population.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Chris

"Polizei, kommen mit den Händen in der Luft" ... or something.

What you're describing here serves to underscore the fundamental difference between policing in the UK and just about everywhere else.

If you advocate a similar approach by British police, then you're calling for far more than simply allowing them to wear a side arm as a matter of routine. You're calling for a serious shift in the rules governing the use of police firearms, and that in turn calls for a shift in the relationship between the police and the public.

AFAIK at present firearms are not deployed unless there's a reasonable suspicion that the suspect is armed. It's the same basic principle of meeting force with comparable force that allows a British homeowner to blow a burglar's head off with his own shotgun. It's the same because Peel's of model of policing by consent, with the police officer simply a uniformed civilian with few powers over and above those of anyone else. Allowing police officers to draw a firearm without any cause other than to force compliance on a suspect puts things on a totally different footing.

In many other places policing is a paramilitary operation. It's not uncommon to see police officers in Europe routinely dressed in the sort of gear you don't see in the UK unless there's a full-scale riot in progress. I don't think we need to create that kind of separation between those of us who wear a uniform and those of us who don't.

I've read this a couple of times now, and I can only come to the conclusion that you appeal to vagueries because you really have no substantive arguments against equipping police with firearms.

Personally, I'm no fan of guns, and I like the idea that police don't carry firearms, but like Will21st, I have spent many years on the continent where police do carry firearms as standard. Like Will, I did not find it threatening in any way, and contrary to what you're suggesting it is actually extremely uncommon to see police officers dressed in riot gear, be it routinely or otherwise. I don't recall any harrowing statistics of scores of innocents being killed by the Police either. As suggested in Hugh's link, it's actually quite rare for the police to use their guns.

Like I said, I like the idea that the Police don't carry firearms as standard, but it really wouldn't bother me one bit if they started doing so.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by danielf

As suggested in Hugh's link, it's actually quite rare for the police to use their guns.

I know a fair few cops who have jumped to become Police in Australia and Canada and a couple of other places. In all cases they have managed to transfer from being unarmed to carrying a pistol without becoming trigger happy lunatics.

One in particular has used his taser at least three times but never had to even draw his glock. He's gone from being moderately anti-gun to thinking that going on patrol without it is unthinkable despite never having needed it.

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Hugh

What warning shots? "Warning shots" and "shooting someone in the arm to disable them" only happens in films/tv, not in real life - when trained with firearms, you are trained to hit the biggest target (the trunk) with at least two rounds.

If you fire a "warning shot", where do you think the bullet goes? Fire it into the air, our friend gravity will bring it back down on to someone/something; fire it into a wall/the ground, it will ricochet.

Well,I read a couple of years ago that two cops in Frankfurt shot an axe-wielding thug in the legs,so it doesn't just happens in films... but I know what you mean. In fact I just found a website with many other examples of cops shooting suspects mainly in the legs to stop them! I hope your Deutsch is still up to scratch,ja?

http://www.schusswaffeneinsatz.de/Fa...izeibeamte.pdf
and about the warning shots.... if possible police will fire them into the ground (grass,mud and the like), otherwise in the air afaik.

In case you're wondering how I know so much about german police... apart from living there for a long time I also have friends in the german police. You know what they think about their UK counterparts being unarmed? They think it's madness... and I agree. Having to shoot a crook if push comes to shove is part of the job,sometimes it's the only play left to protect the public.... sad but true.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Not everybody in the police would be up to the task of handling a fire arm.

Police should not be armed unilaterily.

I think the present system of Armed Response Units is the right balance.

Give them batons, pepper spray, even tasers - but not guns.

Why not? Why this deep distrust? How does a baton and spray help against a knife or axe-wielding thug or someone with a firearm? How does a taser help with that?
How will a cop protect an innocent member of the public if the crook is willing to do serious damage? Sometimes lethal force is all that's left.

Originally Posted by danielf

I've read this a couple of times now, and I can only come to the conclusion that you appeal to vagueries because you really have no substantive arguments against equipping police with firearms.

snip

Thank you,well put.

Originally Posted by Derek

I know a fair few cops who have jumped to become Police in Australia and Canada and a couple of other places. In all cases they have managed to transfer from being unarmed to carrying a pistol without becoming trigger happy lunatics.

One in particular has used his taser at least three times but never had to even draw his glock. He's gone from being moderately anti-gun to thinking that going on patrol without it is unthinkable despite never having needed it.

That's the thing that most people don't seem to realise... a tiny,tiny minority of cops will ever use their gun....
however I do believe it is a legitimate tool to force compliance,if necessary. Like I said in my earlier reply,my german cop friends find the idea of an unarmed police force ludicrous.... I agree.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Derek

Are you saying the public in the UK (let's not forget the Police are all members of the public) are so useless they can't be trusted the same way virtually every other country in the world is?

No idea what point you're trying to make there as you haven't made it very well. I don't think the public, and you can correct me here, are armed......generally. I would also assume that the very vast majority of the public, and most of the police for that matter, have even handled a weapon let alone fired one.

Do you think handling a fire arm is just a case of training somebody how to pull the trigger?

I doubt we could afford the continuous training and assessment required to have all of our officers armed, or do you suggest something like a 3 day training course with a refresher every year?

I certainly wouldn't want someone with that level of training walking the street with a side arm.

Then are you also suggesting that only those that pass the relevent training and psychological aptitude test are allowed to carry a sidearm? It can't be a matter of choice you either arm all police or keep the current system.

I would argue we would lose many serving officers that a) didn't want to carry a weapon and b) failed to pass the required level to carry a weapon.

Then what about those that actuall fire their weapons, I can already see the claims for PTSD and being pensioned off fully filing in.

I have to question the motives of the beat officer that requests the use of a weapon, probably been watching too many american cop shows.

That a Police recruit in England, Wales and Scotland is less capable than one in Northern Ireland?

Possibly, but the PSNI and it's forebears have always carried weapons and the public are used to that, and the recruits that join know that they will have to carry a weapon.

Most UK officers did not join expecting to carry a weapon, unless they specifically put themselves forward to do so.

The army manage to train 16 year olds to handle pistols, rifles and heavier weaponry quite well, why would a Police officer, older and with more life experience be any less safe?

This is not apples with apples.

Happily go on patrol in Helmand would you?

Originally Posted by danielf

I've read this a couple of times now, and I can only come to the conclusion that you appeal to vagueries because you really have no substantive arguments against equipping police with firearms.

Originally Posted by Will21st

Thank you,well put.

It really isn't - it just happens to be something you agree with. I don't have time to reply fully at the moment as I'm writing an article about the distractions of internet access in the office.

[Itshim]

Originally Posted by Will21st

.
however I do believe it is a legitimate tool to force compliance,if necessary. Like I said in my earlier reply,my german cop friends find the idea of an unarmed police force ludicrous.... I agree.

More than once I have been asked if its true that UK cops do not have guns.
Folks just find it amazing. Me I find it extremely brave.
Other descriptions do come to mind. However this is not the time or place to use them .

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Will21st

Why not? Why this deep distrust? How does a baton and spray help against a knife or axe-wielding thug or someone with a firearm?

I'd really love to know how many times the police, in the UK, actually do come up against "axe wielding thugs"

How does a taser help with that?

Well with a range of approx 35ft unless the knife and axe wielding thugs are the last of the mohicans you should be able to stop them.

How will a cop protect an innocent member of the public if the crook is willing to do serious damage? Sometimes lethal force is all that's left.

Someone else who thinks Hill Street Blues was a factual dosumentary series............Let's be careful out there.

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Chris

"Polizei, kommen mit den Händen in der Luft" ... or something.

Yes,the words were something like that. I was glad they weren't for me!

By the way,the burglar(s) wasn't caught.They didn't even see anyone,maybe they were long gone,who knows?
What matters was that the cops had the means to go in with the tools to protect themselves and me best they could.

Originally Posted by Chris

What you're describing here serves to underscore the fundamental difference between policing in the UK and just about everywhere else.

If you advocate a similar approach by British police, then you're calling for far more than simply allowing them to wear a side arm as a matter of routine. You're calling for a serious shift in the rules governing the use of police firearms, and that in turn calls for a shift in the relationship between the police and the public.

Well,why shouldn't they wear a sidearm as routine? It's about having the tools for the job. I've said this before,a cop having to use his gun is so rare,but when (s)he needs it should have it. I expect the police to be able to deal with threats when they arise,that's what they do. In this country,police have to run from armed threat and leave the public vulnerable. During the Derek Bird shooting some officers could have stopped him but had to retreat due to being unarmed...
By the time the ARV arrives it's too late.How is that acceptable?

Originally Posted by Chris

AFAIK at present firearms are not deployed unless there's a reasonable suspicion that the suspect is armed. It's the same basic principle of meeting force with comparable force that allows a British homeowner to blow a burglar's head off with his own shotgun. It's the same because Peel's of model of policing by consent, with the police officer simply a uniformed civilian with few powers over and above those of anyone else. Allowing police officers to draw a firearm without any cause other than to force compliance on a suspect puts things on a totally different footing.

That is another thing that is just wrong,imo. Remember the guy who was wielding a machete on the streets of London and it took twenty or so constables to take him down? Those constables had to defend themselves with dustbin lids!
Normally a scenario like that could be resolved with two cops with Glocks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw

How is this acceptable?

What about those poor officers who were attacked by a dog and almost torn to shreds? They were helpless and had to wait for an ARV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qhSwyCgx00

How is that acceptable?

Originally Posted by Chris

In many other places policing is a paramilitary operation. It's not uncommon to see police officers in Europe routinely dressed in the sort of gear you don't see in the UK unless there's a full-scale riot in progress. I don't think we need to create that kind of separation between those of us who wear a uniform and those of us who don't.

Really? Regular cops in full riot gear? Where? I've been to Spain,Italy and Germany in the past 2 months and haven't see that anywhere. What I did see however were nice,chatty,approachable cops in nice,functional uniforms (unlike UK police uniforms which seem to be a cobbled-together mess).
I really don't understand this separation you refer to? European police are just as nice and approachable as over here.Heck,I found US cops to be great a lot of the time. If you are polite and up-front most cops will be the same to you. Respect goes a long way.
However I also think that as persons of authority cops need to be a little bit 'detached'. They have to be. They enforce the law. If need be against your will.If need be at the tip of a gun.

And as one last thing,this 'policing by consent' thing.... sorry,I just don't get that. I think it's another lie we like to tell ourselves. Police don't police by consent. They keep the peace and enforce the law,wether you or I like it or not.

Considering how utterly rude and disrespectful so many of the public seem to be towards the police here,I think a re-evaluation of public relations between police and public may be in order.

R.I.P WPC Bone
R.I.P.WPC Hughes

---------- Post added at 15:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:10 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

It really isn't - it just happens to be something you agree with. I don't have time to reply fully at the moment as I'm writing an article about the distractions of internet access in the office.

Yeah,and because it just happens to be something you disagree with it isn't well put?

---------- Post added at 15:23 ---------- Previous post was at 15:12 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

I'd really love to know how many times the police, in the UK, actually do come up against "axe wielding thugs"



Well with a range of approx 35ft unless the knife and axe wielding thugs are the last of the mohicans you should be able to stop them.



Someone else who thinks Hill Street Blues was a factual dosumentary series............Let's be careful out there.

Police get attacked by people with knives,baseball bats,Samurai swords and sometimes even axes.... how do you suggest they defend themselves effectively?
You know a taser doesn't always work,right? Sometimes a taser isn't enough to stop someone.
Also,there's no need for your sarky comments.I've spent a long time in societies where police are routinely armed.My observation is that it is a good thing.Which by the way is the observation in most of the rest of the planet's police forces.
By the way...never seen Hill Street Blues.

Reality informed my opinion,not fiction

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Itshim

More than once I have been asked if its true that UK cops do not have guns.
Folks just find it amazing. Me I find it extremely brave.
Other descriptions do come to mind. However this is not the time or place to use them .

I've been asked this many times too. "Don't need them over there, isn't that great?" is my reply. I then follow on to say (tongue in cheek) "You see that's one reason why I moved to Britain, the Brits are freedom loving. They sure do know what freedom means.". That usually winds them up nicely.

Next time one of your American friends asks you if its true that UK cops don't carry guns, just consider it your duty to inform them that from September 2000 through to September 2010, 511 American cops died as a result of hostile gunfire.
In that same time frame, just three British policemen (excluding N. Ireland) died as a result of hostile gunfire. Amazing what we can achieve when we apply a little common sense to gun ownership.

http://www.denverpost.com/nationworl...250?source=rss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...e_line_of_duty

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Will21st

Police get attacked by people with knives,baseball bats,Samurai swords and sometimes even axes

How often?

how do you suggest they defend themselves effectively?

As I have set out previously, there many non-lethal methods available.

You know a taser doesn't always work,right?

there's no guarantee a weapon will always fire.

Also,there's no need for your sarky comments.

I think there is.

By the way...never seen Hill Street Blues.

It was really good.