ID cards rethink to be unveiled

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by BBKing

I didn't know they'd brought in an offence of being boring in a built up area during the hours of daylight.

Shhhh, it's a conspiracy - they'll all want one

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Government responded to the law, the law that the state had implimented, not the people.

The idea that a government or state should be the servant of it's people is a nice one, but it's just an idea. A servant cannot govern.

And the law was changed BECAUSE of pressure from the people. Organisations as quaint as the National Housewives' League demonstrated against ID cards (they burned their ID cards in protest outside parliament) and their intrusions into private life.

It's not just an idea; it was the way it was. The "servant" governed with the consent of the people under threat of being ousted to make way for a more popular party if it did not. Do you trust this government? Do you think future governments will be trustworthy? Do you?

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by freezin

And the law was changed BECAUSE of pressure from the people. Organisations as quaint as the National Housewives' League demonstrated against ID cards (they burned their ID cards in protest outside parliament) and their intrusions into private life.

It's not just an idea; it was the way it was. The "servant" governed with the consent of the people under threat of being ousted to make way for a more popular party if it did not. Do you trust this government? Do you think future governments will be trustworthy? Do you?

Far more trustworthy than those in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Zimbabwe or, whisper it, Russia. At least ours was democratically elected...

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

As for the information that an ID card would hold 95% of it is already out there anyway and if as you say you run a business well more of your info is out there already. An ID card is not an automatic step towards implanting RFID chips as some have suggested and in a way i feel sorry for this and any other government as people want security they say they want control over immigration but a national ID card oh my god no my privacy it's stupid you want something you have to give a little.

But on the National Identity Register it would all be held in one place, open to fraud and lax procedures, and available to a whole host of people at almost the touch of a button.

An ID card is not an automatic step towards implanting RFID chips as some have suggested and in a way i feel sorry for this and any other government as people want security they say they want control over immigration but a national ID card oh my god no my privacy it's stupid you want something you have to give a little.

People want good government of which security is just a part, and I really don't see how ID cards will help improve anything for the public, though it will make a mint for the companies given the contracts. And as for ID cards controlling immigration - is that a joke?

Do you trust this government, and future governments, too?

---------- Post added at 20:37 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------

Originally Posted by Nugget

Far more trustworthy than those in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Zimbabwe or, whisper it, Russia. At least ours was democratically elected...

Governance in the UK is on the slide though. It's ironic that the government wants to impose democratic government on Afghanistan when it has done so much to undermine our own democracy.

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by freezin

Governance in the UK is on the slide though. It's ironic that the government wants to impose democratic government on Afghanistan when it has done so much to undermine our own democracy.

Governance may be on the slide, but we all have it our power to do something about it - an election is due next year, so we can vote 'em out. Unfortunately, the electorate in this country suffer from collective apathy (what is it? 40-odd per cent turnout?), so the old saying comes in - if you can't be bothered to vote, don't expect to be allowed to whine about it...

Mind you, at least we have a choice of who to vote for here

No i am not saying it will help immigration but that is a constant want from the people and it won't hurt will it??. While i don't like the invasions of privacy that seem to happen everyday being realistic what can we do to stop them when many of us are a bit hypocritical about it. I mean we shout and scream about privacy then sign upto a storecard for incentives so shopping is not private anymore. As for losing the data if you had read what i said i would not in anyway trust this shambles of a government to have an ID card. I want to be convinced that if and when it comes in we have the infrastructure and policy's in it's handling in place so that none of us need worry on that aspect.

Originally Posted by Nugget

Governance may be on the slide, but we all have it our power to do something about it - an election is due next year, so we can vote 'em out. Unfortunately, the electorate in this country suffer from collective apathy (what is it? 40-odd per cent turnout?), so the old saying comes in - if you can't be bothered to vote, don't expect to be allowed to whine about it...

Mind you, at least we have a choice of who to vote for here

It was just over 60% turnout at the last election. And apathy does unfortunately rule. But I don't think you can blame those who didn't vote too much. They don't see much of a difference in what's on offer ... "they're all the same" is the common excuse. And there is a lot of truth in that.

We need a less naive, more enquiring electorate, and they need to hear an honest political debate. There's not much chance of that happening.

---------- Post added at 21:05 ---------- Previous post was at 20:56 ----------

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

No i am not saying it will help immigration but that is a constant want from the people and it won't hurt will it??. While i don't like the invasions of privacy that seem to happen everyday being realistic what can we do to stop them when many of us are a bit hypocritical about it. I mean we shout and scream about privacy then sign upto a storecard for incentives so shopping is not private anymore. As for losing the data if you had read what i said i would not in anyway trust this shambles of a government to have an ID card. I want to be convinced that if and when it comes in we have the infrastructure and policy's in it's handling in place so that none of us need worry on that aspect.

I don't think the invasion of privacy is worth that! And the difference between store cards and national ID cards is obvious, one is voluntary and can be ended, and the other is not. The store card holder keeps his card for as long as it suits him. The ID card holder keeps his card for as long as it suits the state.

I DID read what you had said. It just didn't seem to balance with your support for ID cards. And the question remains - Do you trust future governments? That's important imo because once brought in, I would say there is no chance of getting rid of them. But if you are against ID cards until such a time that we have a trustworthy government, ok fine!

[jkat]

"youve got nothing to fear" keep hearing this a lot recently or words to that effect lol

[shawty]

Originally Posted by jkat

"youve got nothing to fear" keep hearing this a lot recently or words to that effect lol

Well its fact. Talking about the people who like to brand about big brother a lot. Bringing in CCTV, bringing in ID cards, will not change the way I live or do things due to the fact the government are not bothered were I shop or what car I drive or waht finger I use to pick my nose. The people that should be worrying are the people who do illegal things. Anyway, what privacy? As soon as you open your house door and step out in the real world, how can you have privacy?

[Tezcatlipoca]

Even ignoring the privacy, civil liberties, and "Big Brother" aspects of the ID Cards scheme (& more importantly, the National ID Register), I do not see how anyone could possibly be in favour of an ID card scheme such as this when it is being brought about by our current incompetent Government.

How many massive Government IT projects have had cost overruns? [and how many have actually delivered what was promised?]

How many times have we read stories regarding yet another data cock-up (HMRC Benefit data, DVLA, etc.)?


Can anyone seriously trust this Goverment to actually successfully implement & run such a grandiose scheme as this? Really?


And when you do then couple that with all the civil liberties issues, and with the complete & utter lack of any actual justifiable need for ID Cards & the ID Database (how many times now has the Govt changed its tune over exactly what the purpose is?), I really fail to understand how anyone could possibly be in favour of this harebrained scheme.

Originally Posted by jkat

"youve got nothing to fear" keep hearing this a lot recently or words to that effect lol

Originally Posted by Martin Niemoller

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by shawty

Well its fact. Talking about the people who like to brand about big brother a lot. Bringing in CCTV, bringing in ID cards, will not change the way I live or do things due to the fact the government are not bothered were I shop or what car I drive or waht finger I use to pick my nose. The people that should be worrying are the people who do illegal things. Anyway, what privacy? As soon as you open your house door and step out in the real world, how can you have privacy?

Stop it - I find myself agreeing with you, and I'm not sure I like it

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by Nugget

Unfortunately, the electorate in this country suffer from collective apathy

I've always thought of it more as "collective stupidity"...

Originally Posted by shawty

Well its fact. Talking about the people who like to brand about big brother a lot. Bringing in CCTV, bringing in ID cards, will not change the way I live or do things due to the fact the government are not bothered were I shop or what car I drive or waht finger I use to pick my nose. The people that should be worrying are the people who do illegal things. Anyway, what privacy? As soon as you open your house door and step out in the real world, how can you have privacy?

How do you know that this infringement of civil liberties will not change the way you live? The government is most definitely interested in what kind of car you drive, not to mention what your diet is like, whether you smoke and or drink, and where you stand on moral issues and the like. And if you're OK with all of that, what happens if future governments are interested in things that are not OK with you?

The people who "do illegal things" are the ones who are likely to be the least worried about ID cards. They're not going to be lining up like good little citizens to have their biometrics taken, are they?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by freezin

And the law was changed BECAUSE of pressure from the people. Organisations as quaint as the National Housewives' League demonstrated against ID cards (they burned their ID cards in protest outside parliament) and their intrusions into private life.

It's not just an idea; it was the way it was. The "servant" governed with the consent of the people under threat of being ousted to make way for a more popular party if it did not. Do you trust this government? Do you think future governments will be trustworthy? Do you?

Pretty sure it was down to there no longer being a state of emergency, therefore no legal requirement for ID cards.
Had the government been able to show there was still a state of emergency, then ID cards would have continued to be legally required.

[shawty]

Originally Posted by Nugget

Stop it - I find myself agreeing with you, and I'm not sure I like it

Sorry, thats all I can say, haha.

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:41 ----------

Originally Posted by freezin

How do you know that this infringement of civil liberties will not change the way you live? The government is most definitely interested in what kind of car you drive, not to mention what your diet is like, whether you smoke and or drink, and where you stand on moral issues and the like. And if you're OK with all of that, what happens if future governments are interested in things that are not OK with you?

The people who "do illegal things" are the ones who are likely to be the least worried about ID cards. They're not going to be lining up like good little citizens to have their biometrics taken, are they?

Because we live in a Country where big brother type things will not happen. In 25 years time, in 50 years time, we will find ourselfs (well not me) saying the same thing. Im also afraid to say if the NHS know if I do or dont smoke/drink and they know what my diet is like, I dont care if the gorverment know or not. Im telling you now, the goverment dont care what car I drive, why would they be bothered about it, if they were, they would have to be bothered on everybodys cars, how many is that? They are only bothered about cars that are being used illegally and such things like that. They dont care Im jumping in my Ford to drive to tesco, why would they.

If drinking alcohol ever became illegal, I wouldnt blame the gorverment, Id blame the people who cant control themselves on a night out. Middlesbrough isnt the best of places at the best of times, on the night time its horrendous due to the drug takers/drinkers not being able to handle themselves and the prostitutes.

Its time we stand up and stop blaming the goverment for everything, sure they are the cause of somethings, the only thing I see with this Country though is people cant lay the blame on themselves or their friends.

I bet, given the chance of running this Country, most people wouldnt know where to stand or what to do and even if they did, does not mean its going to be succesful.

Ive always said that for the 'average' person, they (the different paties trying to get in to run the country) are all as bad as each other. We would be know better/worse off either way because they always find another way to gain money from us.

I think some people need to sit up and all though we are not the best Country in the world, we are certainly not the worst, not by a long shot and some people need to think themselves lucky that we can sit here and actually talk about and maybe do something about the policies the goverment want to bring in.