Abu hamza attacked

[STONEISLAND]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

So, as I have been arguing, the flag itself does not have anything intrinsic about it to be respected, so therefore I don`t see why I should respect it.

Just need to know are you English?

Originally Posted by skunk4u

Just need to know are you English?

Technically yes, but that is only an accident of my birth location. In the modern world I consider national boundaries to be petty and divisive. I would rather be considered as European than English.
__________________

Originally Posted by me283

So just because you don't respect it, it's OK to burn it? What about the millions of Britons who DO respect it, who might find the burning offensive? And what about the many that fought for the flag, and died? Sorry you don't respect the flag, but I do.

No, they fought for the values the flag symbolises. Again, I consider that to be more important that a bit of cloth.

Frankly, why should I care that some people respect the flag if those people aren`t going to respect the fact that burning a flag is a valid form of freedom of expression?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

No, they fought for the values the flag symbolises. Again, I consider that to be more important that a bit of cloth.

Frankly, why should I care that some people respect the flag if those people aren`t going to respect the fact that burning a flag is a valid form of freedom of expression?

If it is only a bit of cloth, why bother burning it then?
Unless your expression is specifically designed to upset people who respect said bit of cloth...

[me283]

So, would it be OK to stand outside the Finsbury Park mosque and burn a copy of the Koran? I think the CRE and the powers that be would come down on the "offender" like a ton of bricks. "Incitement of Racial Hatred" springs to mind... along with "Behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace"...

In my mind, burning a flag is exactly that "Incitiment of racial hatred". Or am I missing something here?

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Unless your expression is specifically designed to upset people who respect said bit of cloth...

Or if it is necessary to protest against what a flag represents or has come to represent, and yes, it will be directed against those who respect the flag, as if it has come to a situation where flag burning is mandated then those, by definition, are your opponents.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Or if it is necessary to protest against what a flag represents or has come to represent, and yes, it will be directed against those who respect the flag, as if it has come to a situation where flag burning is mandated then those, by definition, are your opponents.

So it's not just a bit of cloth then?

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Or if it is necessary to protest against what a flag represents or has come to represent, and yes, it will be directed against those who respect the flag.

....and in the case of those flag burning arabs outside parliment it represents freedom to upset the inhabitants of the country that has given them refuge. To protest against freedoms greater than they have at home.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

So it's not just a bit of cloth then?

Amen!

The shortcomings of his argument clearly spotted.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by me283

So, would it be OK to stand outside the Finsbury Park mosque and burn a copy of the Koran? I think the CRE and the powers that be would come down on the "offender" like a ton of bricks. "Incitement of Racial Hatred" springs to mind... along with "Behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace"...

In my mind, burning a flag is exactly that "Incitiment of racial hatred". Or am I missing something here?

To be honest, I think any westener standing outside Finsbury park burning a copy of the Koran would be in grave danger. I would bet the chances of an individual walking away alive would be something not worth risking.

These people are fanatics, and would kill over someone burning a copy of a book of fairy tales!

[punky]

Originally Posted by me283

So, would it be OK to stand outside the Finsbury Park mosque and burn a copy of the Koran? I think the CRE and the powers that be would come down on the "offender" like a ton of bricks. "Incitement of Racial Hatred" springs to mind... along with "Behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace"...

In my mind, burning a flag is exactly that "Incitiment of racial hatred". Or am I missing something here?

Like always, another brilliant post

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by me283

So, would it be OK to stand outside the Finsbury Park mosque and burn a copy of the Koran?

How is burning a copy of the Koran like burning a flag?


Wouldn't burning a copy of the Koran be more like burning a Bible or other holy book, rather than simply a flag?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Matt D

How is burning a copy of the Koran like burning a flag?


Wouldn't burning a copy of the Koran be more like burning a Bible or other holy book, rather than simply a flag?

Depends how you view it.
Either the flag is just a bit of cloth and a religious book is just a load of paper bound together, or they are special for individual reasons

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Or if it is necessary to protest against what a flag represents or has come to represent, and yes, it will be directed against those who respect the flag, as if it has come to a situation where flag burning is mandated then those, by definition, are your opponents.

This line of argument reminded me of the images that surrounded what I think was the first major clash of cultures involving Muslims in recent times - namely when we had to witness the burning of books, flags and effigys - I refer to the storm caused by 'Satanic Verses'.

Now in how far indeed the book was an affront to Muslims I don't know, but I can't think of anything anyone could write or say about the Bible that would justify a call for their murder.

In case anyone is unsure what I'm referring to: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2542873.stm

I recall at the time being highly incensed by the rethoric of the Muslims and very much angered by their unfettered displays of hatred. It really seemed as if all reason had left them, because their (re)actions were quite alien to British society at the time - and in many ways they still are.

We might have seen it a few more times since then, but I don't think we've lost that feeling of disgust at such apparently mindless violence.

I think if someone had reasoned the issue at the time we might all have reacted a little more sympathetically. As it was, it was just about impossible not to come down on the side of 'free speech'.

There is a message in that to all extremists - we're more likely to listen and hear you if you don't shout so much...
__________________

Originally Posted by Matt D

How is burning a copy of the Koran like burning a flag?

Wouldn't burning a copy of the Koran be more like burning a Bible or other holy book, rather than simply a flag?

It's about what is going to get someone's goat.

Since the person on the other side is arguing that flags have no meaning, and there is an assumption that they probably hold a pro-islamic viewpoint, then clearly suggesting the burning of a copy of the Koran is deemed similarly offensive as was the notion of the burning of the flag.

I mean, how upset would you get over someone burning a copy of the Bible? When there is a copy in just about every hotel room (even in Islamic countries?) in the world, and you can buy a copy in every book shop in every town, there's no need to get seriously upset, is there?
I can rationalise that the burning of a single copy in no way affects the message (acceptable packet loss rate ) and since a Christian doesn't worship the Bible, but rather God, then no real harm done.
That's not to say we wouldn't consider it an insult, but I don't think many of us (even ardent bible bashers) would actually kill because of it.

But we feel quite sure that's not how the other side feels. So we use what we think will tug at those same strings in them.

It's 'funny' really - we're talking about respecting a national flag and end up talking about how we might insult a specific religious group. Way off at different tangents.

I'd be interested to know if a Muslim really has no feelings towards their national flag. Because that would suggest that they aren't interested in any national identity either. But since this is clearly not the case (if the 'insurgent' voices in Iraq are to be believed) then this disrespect for a flag is not a question of faith, or probably even culture, but rather more likely a lack of both.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

So it's not just a bit of cloth then?

If it gets at those a protest is directed against then it is more than a piece of cloth only in the minds of the receiving end, if you are burning it at as a form of protest it is merely a tool. You don`t have to personally share respect for what a symbol stands for in order to work on the minds of others.

Originally Posted by dr wadd

If it gets at those a protest is directed against then it is more than a piece of cloth only in the minds of the receiving end, if you are burning it at as a form of protest it is merely a tool. You don`t have to personally share respect for what a symbol stands for in order to work on the minds of others.

It is interesting that your argument has moved from incredulity over someone's belief in respect for their national flag to it being a weapon in your hands.

At first it looks like an innocent personal/cultural difference - just a matter of perspective. But is is quite clear that you knew all along just how inflammatory (pun intended) the flag burning issue was and hence your entire line of argument was only intended to cause offence.

You are either a sad troll or else they're currently debating in Parliament how to deal with you.