blacks and asians more prone to being stopped

Originally Posted by orangebird

So, come on then, Grahm, Dr Wadd - what do you suggest the police do instead?

It's simple, you don`t do spurious stop-and-searches just because of someone's ethnicity and religion, you treat them the same as someone else. If they have reasonable belief, fine, stop them and search them, but I simply cannot define "reasonable belief" on the grounds of skin colour and/or religion.

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

It's simple, you don`t do spurious stop-and-searches just because of someone's ethnicity and religion, you treat them the same as someone else. If they have reasonable belief, fine, stop them and search them, but I simply cannot define "reasonable belief" on the grounds of skin colour and/or religion.

And what do you define as reasonable belief?

Originally Posted by orangebird

And what do you define as reasonable belief?

That they are either in act of committing a crime (ie. in possession of illegal drugs), or are about to commit a crime, religion and skin colour are indicative of neither. Unless you are stating they are, in which case you are making a sweeping generalisation on the basis of religion and/or skin colour. I believe that there is a word for that kind of prejudice............

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

That they are either in act of committing a crime (ie. in possession of illegal drugs),

Sorry, I really don't mean to be picky, but unless you search someone, how do you know they're in possession of drugs (or a bomb etc etc etc...)?

or are about to commit a crime, religion and skin colour are indicative of neither. Unless you are stating they are, in which case you are making a sweeping generalisation on the basis of religion and/or skin colour. I believe that there is a word for that kind of prejudice............

And how do you determine that someone is 'about to commit a crime'?
I personally believe that with the specific case of looney tunes that originate from the middle east wanting to blow innocents up, and the apparent lack of any confessionals fro these people, skin colour and religion are about the only two things we have to go on....

I can understand and agree to a certain point with the Islamaphobia theory, but if one of my nearest and dearest got injured or killed because one of these dillusional extremists didn't look shifty enough to get stopped and searched, I'd be baying for blood from the b*stards that dfid it, AND from our security services that weren't thorough enough....

Originally Posted by orangebird

Sorry, I really don't mean to be picky, but unless you search someone, how do you know they're in possession of drugs (or a bomb etc etc etc...)?

You merely asked when, under the current legislation (as that is the only valid framework under which to address the question) stop and search would be justified. To be honest, I do not believe that the police should necessarily have the right to what essentially amounts to arbitrary stop and search powers. If the police wish to search my house they are supposed to get a search warrant, I fail to see why such protection shouldn`t extend to my pockets, bags, etc.

Originally Posted by orangebird

I can understand and agree to a certain point with the Islamaphobia theory, but if one of my nearest and dearest got injured or killed because one of these dillusional extremists didn't look shifty enough to get stopped and searched, I'd be baying for blood from the b*stards that dfid it, AND from our security services that weren't thorough enough....

And in real terms, what protection does it actually offer you? Stop and searches are up by around 300%, arrests are down. Mathematically, it isn`t an effective tactic, so what protection does it offer you?

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

You merely asked when, under the current legislation (as that is the only valid framework under which to address the question) stop and search would be justified. To be honest, I do not believe that the police should necessarily have the right to what essentially amounts to arbitrary stop and search powers. If the police wish to search my house they are supposed to get a search warrant, I fail to see why such protection shouldn`t extend to my pockets, bags, etc.



And in real terms, what protection does it actually offer you? Stop and searches are up by around 300%, arrests are down. Mathematically, it isn`t an effective tactic, so what protection does it offer you?

A little is better than none IMO. What else do you suggest we do?

Originally Posted by orangebird

A little is better than none IMO. What else do you suggest we do?

Did you actually read all of my reply? I've already stated what I believe we should do, only have stop and search if it is backed up by a search warrant. Yes, I know that is impractical, my point being that I do not believe that the police should have that right at all.

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Did you actually read all of my reply? I've already stated what I believe we should do, only have stop and search if it is backed up by a search warrant. Yes, I know that is impractical, my point being that I do not believe that the police should have that right at all.

Ok then what rights should the police have to uphold the law? their job isnt soley to track down criminals after the event, they are there to prevent crime also.

Stop and searches up 300%, arrests down. Well maybe, Just maybe the realisation they are more likely to be caught doing minor offences under the current climate is actually helping to clear up anti social problems. If people realise they are more likely to be stopped and searched they are les likely to carry things they shouldnt. Arrests down, I think the fact the poice doint have to arrest as many people could be interpreted as a positive result.

Perhaps we should give the police the power to stop and search the little scrotes that hang around the shops drinking when under age, stealing cars, committing burglary, and mugging people.

What people fail to understand is that by giving the Police a tough time for doing the job they are affecting others, not just the individual police involved and themselves. What harm is there in being stopped and asked a few questions? Does it cause so much hassle that you cant possibly co-operate without creating a scene?

The police have a toough enough job as it is, and as far as I am concerned it should be a minor offence to awkward with the police when asked reasonably a few questions. It has nothing to do if they think you are guilty of something, the questions are to help them do their job, know who is in a given area so if anything happens they know where they can start looking and eliminating suspects. Its not about your black, we dont like your face, c'mon my son yer nicked.

I cant understand what this country is coming to when we scream about the lack of coppers on the beat one minute then cry harrassment because they are finally out there doing their bloody job.
Yes not all coppers are cleaner than clean, and yes some do have attitude problems (had the misfortune to come across one once, was cheeky and promptly arrested for drunk and disorderly even though I was quite sober, but had been drinking......thats where I learnt my lesson that its easier to co-operate and help them do their job).

One mans cry for civil liberties may cause umpteen problems for others.

If the police werent stopping and searching Asians and muslims and there was a huge bomb blast in your town, and it turns out the Muslim extremeists did it, would you be happy the police hadnt done "something" ?

If there was a Combat 18 rally in your neighbourhood and you were attacked by skinheads, would you be happy that because of Civil liberties, the police hadnt bothered finding out why all these skin heads were there? After all its not illegal to have a shaved head and wear jeans.

If your child was attacked by a paedophile, would you be happy that police were unaware of him?

The Police gain information by stopping and talking/asking questions of others. Yes it may result in 1 conviction in a 1000 but if that 1 conviction stops a child from being raped, or a 100 people killed or maimed in a bomb blast is it still not worth your time to answer a couple of questions?

As a foot note, are there any figures on the amount of white people stopped and searched in the same time frame? Can we compare them? is there a rise there, a drop or no change.
Is it in fact that the police are hassling these people or is it the fact that more and more police are now on the beat and are there to be able to stop and search? Perhaps the police are indeed doing their jobs and not victimising anybody.
Are the police victimising motorists in the speeding campaign, or is it just more officers available to actually do the job of the police?
Can we have comparisons please?

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Graham

Here's what I've just written to the "feedback" page regarding that article:

* * * * *

For those who are puzzled by the seeming shift of young Muslims to "extremism", may I invite them to consider the rise of "Black Power" organisations in America in the 1960's

Here were a group of people in what they thought they could consider to be "their country" being effectively told that they were second class citizens. They were a "problem" to be dealt with, a "threat" to the status quo, people to be suspicious of, not to be trusted.

Is it any wonder that some turned around and said "well, if that's how you think we should be treated, we'll damn well behave that way!"?

Now consider the young Muslims again and ask yourself if there's really that much difference.

* * * * *

Exactly what I was saying with my post. Though you would hope they would have the 'moral fibre' not to give in to extremism.....

ohhh look what I found on the BBC website........


....certainly paints a picture of "victimisation", but not in the area most people expected.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3859991.stm


Link originally posted by Graham, and definately, absolutely positively NOT posted by Dr Wadd, Thanks for that

So lets look at it again, are Asians and blacks the ones that are really being victimised, or is it, the fact they are Asian and black that it makes the news?
I really hope it isnt true, but I suspect some people are trying to delibertaely play the racism card.
I read what had happened, and yes the three links Dr Wadd, I mean ermmm.....Graham, posted were shocking reading, but it doesnt really say whether the people were doidn anything that could have been interpretted as "odd" perhaps. The one gentleman that has won a case against the met I say yes fair enough 37 times in the given time span isnt excessive but the charges of crimes that he obviously didnt commit do warrant an apology.

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Stop and searches up 300%, arrests down. Well maybe, Just maybe the realisation they are more likely to be caught doing minor offences under the current climate is actually helping to clear up anti social problems.

Specifically, arrests for terrorism related offences are down, not arrests in general (sorry, I do make the presumption that people watch the news, my mistake). How does that now fit into your theory?

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Link originally posted by Dr Wadd, Thanks for that

I read what had happened, and yes the three links Dr Wadd posted were shocking reading

I didn`t post those links. Perhaps you should pay closer attention to what you are reading.

Originally Posted by dr wadd

I didn`t post those links. Perhaps you should pay closer attention to what you are reading.

Yeah Many apologies Dr Wadd. I'll change the post to reflect that Graham posted those links.

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Perhaps we should give the police the power to stop and search the little scrotes that hang around the shops drinking when under age, stealing cars, committing burglary, and mugging people.

And a car thief can fit a car in a bag or their pocket?

Originally Posted by timewarrior2001

Yeah Many apologies Dr Wadd. I'll change the post to reflect that Graham posted those links.

Well, no need to apologise