[merged] Realplayer 10

by resspecting the fact he hates you mean dont rep him badly

[Defiant]

Originally Posted by Damien

by resspecting the fact he hates you mean dont rep him badly

Bah you dont know me then. I'm not interested in this repping business, not bad reps anyway. This is just fun if people take things the wrong way well its not my problem. I've repped no one and the admin can check on that. Though I know there are people who do give bad reps out there, leave nasty comments and dont leave there name...

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Right, which is why the EU wants to force Microsoft to strip functionality, the improvements they made, out of Windows? Come on.


Yes it is. Microsoft is the owner of its own products and can make ANY restrictions for the sale and use of its product. If you don't like it, TOUGH. Don't use it.


Actually, we were. The original topic was Real, Windows Media, and other media players. The EU decided to force Microsoft to remove the improvements it made to the operating system by offering Windows without Media Player. That is NOT free enterprise.

You moved towards the IE/Netscape issue, where Microsoft said that in order to pre-install our product, you have to do [this]. That is completely acceptable, because MICROSOFT OWNS THE SOFTWARE. If you don't agree, YOU CANNOT USE IT, because IT IS NOT YOURS. Don't install it then.




So? It is FREE ENTERPRISE. Microsoft should have the right to FREELY improve its products in ANY WAY THEY WANT without interference from the government. If the rest of the world can't come up with something better, tough ****. If they can, then great! Because most people would want the best product for the lowest price.


They are not abusing anything. They are not a monopoly either. The only thing that harms competing products from entering the market is their good products that people love. If others can't come up with something better, then TOUGH ****. This is the fundamentals of free enterprise.


The consumer isn't forced to do anything! Did you know that you can go out and buy Linux? Or an Apple? DID YOU KNOW THAT? Did you know that there is NOTHING that FORCES you to put up with products that are less good? NOTHING. SHOW me the law if you disagree with me. PLEASE.


So?


No one is FORCING anyone to pay for ANYTHING they don't want. You either accept the product Microsoft has to offer, or you don't. I can't go to the store and buy water, but not the plastic bottle, because I don't want it. I can't go to the store to buy a can of corn, but I want only the corn, not the can. YOU PAY FOR THE PRODUCT. If Microsoft, or any company, chooses to break the product down into individual parts, THAT IS THEIR PREROGGATIVE. If they don't, THOUGH ****. NO ONE is forcing ANYONE to buy anything.


There is no such thing as regulated competition. It isn't competition then. You're advocating socialism. Thats fine, you have that right, but I completely disagee with it because I'm a capitalist and believe in the free enterprise system.



Microsoft has NO OBLIGATION WHATSOEVER. They are a corporation, and they offer products to the general public. If you are interested in acquiring it, you make a deal with them with stipulations that both parties agree to. If you can't reach an agreement, you take your business elsewhere. THERE IS NO OBLIGATION. Microsoft doesn't owe anyone anything.


Unfair advantage? Absolutely not. ANYONE can write their own operating system and market it. They do have an advantage, yes, and that is their RIGHT since it is THEIR product.

I normally detest posts which flatly refuse to engage with issues raised by other members. But Jerrek, your comments are so shockingly naive, and ignorant of world affairs, I really can't be bothered. Sorry.

oh sorry it was jerrek who gave it. MY mistake. sorry.


And why dont people leave there name its annoying. Bap reps shouldnt count if there is no name

[philip.j.fry]

Originally Posted by Damien

And why dont people leave there name its annoying. Bap reps shouldnt count if there is no name

When you get a second ball you get to see everyones names

Originally Posted by philip.j.fry

When you get a second ball you get to see everyones names

Really? Thats so COOL!

Quick people rep me. I'll say good things errr..

I ahte microsoft

emmm goverment is rubbish up with far left

I am a linux fan

rep me rep me rep me

How much good points do you need?

[Jerrek]

Originally Posted by philip.j.fry

Have a look at the Free Software Foundation and see what is meant by free, the licence it (i.e the Kernel) is distributed under does not preclude charging for it, so people may make money off of it.

You can still download it for free. They only charge for support services.

I think your analysis of what would happen if MS were to pull out of Europe isn't particularly likely. The more probable situation would be that there would be a time of readjustment, which would be a huge desruption, while all existing MS products are replaced with alternatives.

Like what? Good luck. The unwashed masses will have to switch to Macs or Linux, both with limited software. "What do you mean I can't run World of Warcraft on my Mac?"

Lets get real. It would be a disaster. It would hurt both Microsoft and the people.

Because of the vacumn created, a hell of a lot more research would be done, improving them for use in everyday life. I.e, Linux on the desktop would be sped up a lot.

True, but how long is that going to take? 3 years? 5 years?

Arguing that, I can see that it is bad to have a homogeous environment where one product dominates because of the dangers if that product dissapears/develops a major fault. It is exactly those resons why I think that a controlled market is better than free trade. From my perspective I believe that free trade only serves in the long run to stifle cooperation and creativity and reduces consumer choice.

This has nothing to do with free trade. Trade and the market are completely separate concepts. You're advocating a controlled market, which has proved time and time again that it does not work. If it did, the USSR would still exist. If you want to turn to controlled markets and controlled economies (communism), fine. I don't. I'm a FREE market entrepeneur.

[Jerrek]

Originally Posted by philip.j.fry

I think most companies would worry about it. As for individuals, a major reason why Windows is the prevalent OS for home use, is quite simply the fact that it comes pre-installed on most pcs. If another OS were to be installed in it's place, I doubt many people would think of changing it and any replacement OS would most likely be mostly indistinguishable to the average end user. It would be a change about as significant from an older version of windows to the latest version, people adapt and get used to it.

Please, lets get serious. Do you really want to explain to your grandmother how to mount disks and to use pine and gnome/kde/whateverX you like to check her email? Windows and Macs are the easiest. THAT is why they come preinstalled because most people can't use Linux. And THAT is why Microsoft is dominating. They are taking away the stuff nerds like to see. Command lines, source code, and so on. You can't customize Windows as much as Linux because Windows is closed. Linux is geared towards nerds, and as long as that is the case, Microsoft will dominate because when they design their software they put a user's hat on, not a nerd's.

[Jerrek]

Originally Posted by towny

I normally detest posts which flatly refuse to engage with issues raised by other members. But Jerrek, your comments are so shockingly naive, and ignorant of world affairs, I really can't be bothered. Sorry.

What issues did I not engage in?

How are my comments naive? Because I don't advocate communism (planned economies)? Because I'm a capitalist?

[Stuart]

Jerrek, can I just remind you that Mac OSX is basically FreeBSD hidden behind a pretty interface. It wouldn't take much for someone to do that to Linux.

[Jerrek]

Originally Posted by scastle

Jerrek, can I just remind you that Mac OSX is basically FreeBSD hidden behind a pretty interface. It wouldn't take much for someone to do that to Linux.

Then it would have been done already.

[philip.j.fry]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

You can still download it for free. They only charge for support services.

and the work that they've put into it, and any non-free packages that are included in the distribution. A good example here is Mac OSX. It has a BSD based kernel, which is distributed under the free BSD licence. However, the overlaying software like the shell (GUI) is not free and this is what you are paying for.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Like what? Good luck. The unwashed masses will have to switch to Macs or Linux, both with limited software. "What do you mean I can't run World of Warcraft on my Mac?"

Limited software? Have a look on freshmeat etc. True, a lot of the software doesn't have the maturity of the Windows equivalents, particularly in the games area, but those companies that produce software for the Windows systems would in all probability switch to producing software for Macs/Linux/BSD. It would be that or take a huge drop in revenue.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Lets get real. It would be a disaster. It would hurt both Microsoft and the people.
True, but how long is that going to take? 3 years? 5 years?

I'm not suggesting that it will happen, the chances of it are infinitesimally small, I'm just giving my opinion on the 'what if' scenario. I don't necessarily think that it will hurt people, it would just be a pain in the *ss. People would carry on using their current products (Windows) until when in the normal course of things they would upgrade they instead switch to a new system. 3-5 years is a fairly good estimate (it's about the estimates that give for Linux on the desktop now). Having the need to improve things will also help things along a bit I feel. By that time, projects like Wine would have moved along so issues of backwards compatibility with existing products won't be so much of an issue.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

This has nothing to do with free trade. Trade and the market are completely separate concepts. You're advocating a controlled market, which has proved time and time again that it does not work. If it did, the USSR would still exist. If you want to turn to controlled markets and controlled economies (communism), fine. I don't. I'm a FREE market entrepeneur.

I apologise for my lack of knowledge of economic terminology. We, in Europe, have a controlled market which has proved that it does work. That is the level of control that I advocate, so I don't see why it always has to come back to total control (communism).

[Defiant]

Originally Posted by philip.j.fry

I apologise for my lack of knowledge of economic terminology. We, in Europe, have a controlled market which has proved that it does work. That is the level of control that I advocate, so I don't see why it always has to come back to total control (communism).

Thought the EU was controlled by Germany and France. They always seem to come out on top no matter what anyway. Anything they dont like they put right. Anything the others dont like well lump it LOL

[philip.j.fry]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Do you really want to explain to your grandmother how to mount disks

Supermount, runs in the same way as the MS mounting system, takes away the need for explicit mounting. Installed by default in most of the more user-friendly distributions.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

and to use pine

Mozilla/Thunderbird, also commonly used mailers on windows systems. Evolution, Outlook look-alike with some improved features. Also installed as default on most user-friendly distributions.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

and gnome/kde/whateverX you like to check her email?

Gnome/KDE, desktop managers that provide a graphical interface, in much the same way as Windows Explorer provides a graphical interface on Windows desktops. Again, installed as a default

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Windows and Macs are the easiest. THAT is why they come preinstalled because most people can't use Linux. And THAT is why Microsoft is dominating. They are taking away the stuff nerds like to see. Command lines, source code, and so on. You can't customize Windows as much as Linux because Windows is closed. Linux is geared towards nerds, and as long as that is the case, Microsoft will dominate because when they design their software they put a user's hat on, not a nerd's.

I don't take issue with Windows/Macs being the easiest to operate, that is most certainly the case. Nowhere in this thread have I suggested that people should dump all other OS's and switch to Linux. I wouldn't reccommend that. What I take issue with is the way Microsoft conduct their business and that their use of closed standards (that's standards, not source, I take no exception to proprietary software) locks people in to their software and does reduce freedom of choice. If you look more closely at the history of computing, you'll soon see a different picture of why Microsoft dominate.

And yes, currently, Linux is for nerds. It is inwieldy and complicated. But that is a picture that is very rapidly changing, very very rapidly thanks to the likes of Sun and Novell.

[Bifta]

Originally Posted by philip.j.fry

But that is a picture that is very rapidly changing, very very rapidly thanks to the likes of Sun and Novell.

It's been changing for years and it's still not much easier and the thing is, so has Windows. Linux will never catch up, it's like Coke vs someobscurecola .. it'll never get anywhere near the consumer foothold Microsoft has currently or will have in the future.