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Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
View Poll Results: Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal?
Yes, Definitely. 958 95.51%
No, I am quite happy to share my surfing habits with anyone. 45 4.49%
Voters: 1003. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 26-05-2008, 23:31   #7246
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnilddif View Post
Re the BT Contact link on the BT Webwise page:

Back in early March I asked a question of BT Webwise using this link - it must have been the http://www.webwise.bt.com/webwise/contact.php
page. It took someone a while to reply, but here it is, received on March 13 2008:

<quote, with personal details edited out>
Dear Mr. (My surname)

Thank your for your email and apology in delay in responding.

I can confirm that on the 14 Feb BT, Talk Talk and Virgin Media all
confirmed that we had entered in to agreements with Phorm, enabling us
to offer to our customers a new free internet feature called Webwise.
Webwise provides an additional level of protection against malicious
websites and ensures fewer irrelevant adverts. In essence a safer and
more relevant browsing experience. Prior to the announcement BT
thoroughly researched Webwise and was encouraged by the very positive
consumer response to the service.

Clearly our customer's privacy is extremely important to us. Information
on users browsing is completely anonymous, it doesn't gather personally
identifiable information, doesn't store URL's, IP addresses or retain
browsing histories and the raw data used is deleted in real time - by
the time the page loads. Webwise does not scan webmail pages so your
emails on Gmail, Yahoo mail or Hotmail are not scanned. Secure pages
like your banking websites and web forms like any online registration or
sign-up forms are not scanned. No personal information often contained
in form fields is therefore ever captured by the system. No data is
passed outside of BT's network. Webwise privacy standards have been
verified by external auditor Ernst & Young, Of course BT, TalkTalk and
Virgin Media have all completed appropriate due diligence on Phorm, we
also understand that other ISP's both in and outside of the UK are
currently talking to them.

BT expects to begin technical trials of the BT Webwise service shortly.
We will be inviting around 10,000 BT broadband Consumer customers to
take part in the trial. The trial invitation will be presented through a
special web page that will appear when those customers start a web
browsing session. At this point, those customers invited can choose to
opt in, opt out or to find out more information. Customers choosing not
to take part will not be profiled. The www.bt.com/webwise site also
contains detailed information on the service and a one-click option to
switch the service off, which can be activated at any point during the
trial. The BT Privacy Policy and BT Total Broadband Service Terms will
be amended accordingly.

Opting out means that no browsing data whatsoever is processed. Opting
in and out of BT Webwise is extremely easy and completely transparent.
Standard opt out method does depend on a cookie remaining on your
machine indicating that you have opted out. If you delete your cookies
regularly, you will have to opt-out again each time you start a browsing
session. But for those who delete cookies regularly and want to remain
opted out, you can block cookies from the domain www.webwise.net on each
browser you use. When you block this domain, the service will opt you
out permanently.

I hope that this response allays the concerns that you have expressed.
Please note that BT Webwise service will not be available for BT Retail
Business customers.

-----Original Message-----
From: marketing@phorm.com [mailto:marketing@phorm.com]
Sent: 05 March 2008 19:24
To: marketing@phorm.com
Subject: BT.webwise.com Contact Request

*** This email came from a bt.webwise.com contact submission on Wed 5
Mar 14:23:34 EST 2008. ***

Title: Mr
First name: (My real first name)
Last name: (My real surname)
ISP: BT
Email: (my primary bt emailATbtopenworld.com)
Phone:
User type: Unknown User

Questions or comments:
I wish to ensure that no browsing history whatsoever is available to
your insidious snooping. Is www.oix.net the only URL that I must set
cookie-controls to reject?

</quote>

After you've had a good laugh at the atrocious grammar, punctuation and wonky syntax, have a think about the following:
1. No personal named signatory, as is normal, in my experience, from BT.
2. No BT department contained in the signature information, as is normal from BT.
2. A post to a BT department/organisation receives a reply mentioning other ISPs that are irrelevant to the subject matter.
3. The significance of the lines after and including marketingATphorm.com.
4. The date stamp - EST.

The evidence tells me that BT have passed my personal details to a third party that is outside the UK - phorm - specifically, my real name, my ISP and my primary BT email address. If I had inserted my phone number in the appropriate field, then they'd have that too.

But I may be wrong, so I'd be interested in any comments. I know the phorm issue can get get blood boiling, so carefully considered and unemotive please Is this a clear case of an offence under RIPA?

gnilddif
Are you sending that correspondence as it stands, to the ICO? If it was an email I had received I would certainly do that wth a copy sent to the BT Data Controller, and the BT Retail legal people.
Unfortunately the contact.php page on webwise.bt.com is no longer working - submissions do not actually get made - as I was going to try and make an enquiry myself and see what happened.
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Old 26-05-2008, 23:38   #7247
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by popper View Post
missed it and there isnt any video online about it....

what did it cover, its clear that they covered Phorm, how long was the segment?.

its clear the researchers or the web page designers didnt cover much, as the one and only gadgetshow page is this, and there is nothing relating to the Anti-Phorm and the Phormettes side of the story.

they couldnt even enter the url right for that "privacy laws and business" link.

they do link to the US based Phishing "web wise" url though from there....

http://gadgetshow.five.tv/jsp/5gsmai...ction=Features


there doesnt seem to be anything on the youtube as regards todays section eather!
The segment lasted about 6 minutes or so and briefly consisted of:
Jason and a laptop being stalked by people looking over his shoulder, talking about privacy and targeted ads online and how ISP's should be protecting customers privacy and not selling their browsing habits.
Phorm's relationship with BT, Virgin and CPW was briefly explained.
Then it cut to a short clip of K*nt giving his usual blah.. blah.. its all good!
Then Jason spoke of the rising tide against webwise whilst flashing up images of the various anti-Phorm websites.
A clip of an interview with Emma Sanderson, explained it could be switched on and off, mentioned "Due diligence" and "legal advice". Then stated that "BT has signed an agreement with Phorm".
A short video clip of another guy from a legal journal (cant for the life of me remember his or the journal name) gave a brief description of how it is believed to breach RIPA guidelines.

Finally Jason said how he believed that ISPs should have an obligation to defend their customers' privacy and ended with - "We are keeping an eye on this, and will keep you posted".

Those of you who saw it... I'm typing from memory... is this roughly right?
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Old 27-05-2008, 00:05   #7248
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

thanks, that sounds cool then.

we could do with a high quality AVC encode of the Phorm segment somtime being put up on your usual youtube GS section if you gadgetshow guys/girls/techs turn up here please.

i just asked them all to come here and introduce themselves, and so catch up on the latest and greatest interception for profit intraISP assisted Phorm and the Phormettes information etc, in an email
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Old 27-05-2008, 00:08   #7249
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Some details of the gadget show item. I'll pick out some choice quotes.

The piece is presented by Jason Bradbury. He starts on the sofa.

"I want to tell you about the murkier side of ISP's"
"You pay, you their customers, pay for access to the internet".

Cuts to street scene. Privacy is something we all value and take for granted. If I walk down the street I don't expect someone to come up and look what colour pants I have on. (Girl runs up and looks at his pants).

If I work on my computer,I don't expect anyone to assume it's their right to know what i'm reading (girl sits behind looking over his shoulder).

What about the internet, are you sure it's private? He thinks it should be
private, it's your business and it should stay that way. (It's clear what he
thinks about it).

If you have an account with the top 3 ISP's your surfing habits will not remain
private for long because they intend to sell your browsing habits to advertisers. (Names the 3 and phorm/webwise).

Cut to Kent guff. Normal stuff. (Looks like he needs to eat more prunes.)

JB then explains that BT due to start soon, others later.

Cut to BT Emma. Trials start soon etc. Interestingly, same stutter when talking about legal advice as on C4 and BBC interviews. (She does not look convincing, more like a naughty school girl caught out on something).

JB then explains a lot depends upon how the options are presented. What happens by default etc.

"We believe this is very, very wrong. In fact we think your ISP has a moral
obligation not to just sell on your surfing habits, but to keep them completely
secure. After all, you are paying them."

"There is even some debate if Phorms services are even legal"

Cut to James Michael, Editor, Privacy Laws and Business. Talks about FIPR RIPA etc.

Asked Phorm about this. "There is no legal issue, we comply with all UK laws and have been in consultation with ICO and HO"

Suzy Perry - "If you want your browsing kept private in the future, it's worth
knowing about the plans of the leading 3 ISP' so we will keep you posted"

------------------------------------

It's not word for word, but a good gist of it. From our point of view I think it was excellent. BT and Phorm would not have liked it. I don't know what the viewing figures are for the gadget show, but whoever watched it will have had a bit of an eye opener.

EDIT : I see icsys beat me to it.
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Old 27-05-2008, 00:10   #7250
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones View Post
Are you sending that correspondence as it stands, to the ICO? If it was an email I had received I would certainly do that wth a copy sent to the BT Data Controller, and the BT Retail legal people.
Unfortunately the contact.php page on webwise.bt.com is no longer working - submissions do not actually get made - as I was going to try and make an enquiry myself and see what happened.
Ah, you shouldn't have forewarned them I get the feeling that quite a few BT staff haven't had a very relaxing Bank Holiday. Anyway, I had just started to prepare a report to the ICO, and will follow your suggestion of copying to the other two. Thanks R.

g
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Old 27-05-2008, 00:14   #7251
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark777
EDIT : I see icsys beat me to it.
But your transcript is much better

I wish I had known in advance of the program, I would have recorded it!
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Old 27-05-2008, 00:18   #7252
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by icsys View Post
But your transcript is much better

I wish I had known in advance of the program, I would have recorded it!
I've got the advantage of having a recording! If it's not repeated on 5 life tomorrow, i'll do a detailed transcript, but I think the main points are covered.
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Old 27-05-2008, 00:21   #7253
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Last weeks viewing figures for THE GADGET SHOW (MON 1959) 0.92 Million

If just half that number google phorm it would help the cause tremendously.
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Old 27-05-2008, 02:23   #7254
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3x2 View Post
The whole report was filled with wild optimism from start to finish but you really had to wonder about the international 'assumptions'. "France in Q1/10" anyone told the French yet?? 'Non' is a phrase that comes to mind.
I think you’re right about France. We know that, because of the nature of the system, Phorm are sometimes going to accidentally profile people without their consent. The defence of ‘automatically and without intent’ may stand up perfectly well in this country, however it doesn’t seem to hold much water when it comes to privacy legislation in France.
French websites liable for story in RSS reader
(Yes, that’s the same OUT-LAW.COM who said the Phorm system is ok in the UK because it’s only slightly illegal.)
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Old 27-05-2008, 02:42   #7255
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnilddif View Post
Ah, you shouldn't have forewarned them I get the feeling that quite a few BT staff haven't had a very relaxing Bank Holiday. Anyway, I had just started to prepare a report to the ICO, and will follow your suggestion of copying to the other two. Thanks R.

g
Online complaint to ICO is on its way, and I've informed BT legal and Data Controller.
g
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Old 27-05-2008, 09:28   #7256
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark777 View Post
snip...

Cut to BT Emma. Trials start soon etc. Interestingly, same stutter when talking about legal advice as on C4 and BBC interviews.

If it's the same stutter in the same place, it's deception...I smell a large rodent.

Was it exactly in the same place and with the same choice of words?
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Old 27-05-2008, 09:54   #7257
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by icsys View Post
Last weeks viewing figures for THE GADGET SHOW (MON 1959) 0.92 Million

If just half that number google phorm it would help the cause tremendously.

It is a step in the right direction, sad that to protect privacy you have to try to find help from non UK government sources since the government are like the large ISPs can't see anything past $$$$$$$$$

Time to vote them out which is easier since Brown wasn't voted in in the first place and is Scottish, explain why we have a scottish MP for Primeminister when UK MPs are not allowed to vote on Scottish law. The Scottish MPs shouldn't be allowed to vote on UK laws or rule as Head of the government. MPO


Enough off topic back to Phorm...

We will need to keep an eye on any domain names that can gather information to pass to supposedly BT when the domina name isn't infact in BT's control. As these domains can be pointed to any hosting company without BT even knowing they had changed but would result in Phorm harvesting BT personal details from customers..

---------- Post added at 09:54 ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 ----------

Just doing a check on webwise and noticed that they seem to have conflicting information.

Search for www.webwise.com gives
www.webwise.bt.com internet address 207.44.186.90
DNS Lookup Log:
Command line:
./nslookup '-timeout=5' '-query=A' -nodef 'www.webwise.bt.com'

Command output:
Server: int-ns1.dns.rcn.net
Address: 207.172.3.16

Non-authoritative answer:
Name: www.webwise.bt.com
Address: 207.44.186.90
---------------------------------

webwise.bt.com gives
Name Type Value
webwise.bt.com internet address 88.208.250.66
webwise.bt.com internet address 88.208.250.85
webwise.bt.com internet address 88.208.248.102
DNS Lookup Log:
Command line:
./nslookup '-timeout=5' '-query=A' -nodef 'webwise.bt.com'

Command output:
Server: int-ns1.dns.rcn.net
Address: 207.172.3.16

Non-authoritative answer:
Name: webwise.bt.com
Addresses: 88.208.250.85, 88.208.248.102, 88.208.250.66

------------------------------------------------------

That to me makes me worry since the main IP is the American hosting and the 88 ip range is in UK so to me this is set to phishing...
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Old 27-05-2008, 10:01   #7258
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Hi All, Just seen this, apologies if it has been posted already. -
http://www.localtechwire.com/busines...story/2940963/

Don't forget the repeat of the Gadget Show next Sunday morning at 10am.

Regards to all. davethejag
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Old 27-05-2008, 10:19   #7259
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NTLVictim View Post
If it's the same stutter in the same place, it's deception...I smell a large rodent.

Was it exactly in the same place and with the same choice of words?
BT Emma's bit in full.

"We have signed an agreement with Phorm and we will be shortly trialling this new webwise feature with about 10,000 of our broadband customers. Any future plans are really dependent upon that trial. It will be completely optional so ultimately our customers will decide whether they want this new free feature or not and that BT has, as i'm sure have the other ISP's involved, done appropriate due diligence and sought extensive legal advice on this iss .. on this particular area."

There were lots of errs and umms. It looks like she was going to say advice on this issue, but changed it to particular area. To my mind, 'issue' would apply to the whole phorm issue. 'Particular area' leaves wriggle room. What particular area?

It would be nit picking, but the words appear to be well chosen, here and in other interviews. I don't think we can read too much into it, but it might be an indicator what BT execs are worried about.

This one looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights.
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Old 27-05-2008, 10:42   #7260
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark777 View Post
BT Emma's bit in full.

"We have signed an agreement with Phorm and we will be shortly trialling this new webwise feature with about 10,000 of our broadband customers. Any future plans are really dependent upon that trial. It will be completely optional so ultimately our customers will decide whether they want this new free feature or not and that BT has, as i'm sure have the other ISP's involved, done appropriate due diligence and sought extensive legal advice on this iss .. on this particular area."

There were lots of errs and umms. It looks like she was going to say advice on this issue, but changed it to particular area. To my mind, 'issue' would apply to the whole phorm issue. 'Particular area' leaves wriggle room. What particular area?

It would be nit picking, but the words appear to be well chosen, here and in other interviews. I don't think we can read too much into it, but it might be an indicator what BT execs are worried about.

This one looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights.
Yep, same stumble, same area..she's being economical with the truth, it's too much of a coincidence.

With people like that, it's good to listen to what they aren't saying..
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