Hamas Israel War

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

They are occupying the West Bank for security reasons, again due to the violence and intimidation of the Palestinians. They haven’t taken it over, they are sharing the land, which of course is the only sensible long term objective.

As for your statement about conflating Hamas with the wider Palestinian population, they all seem to be stubbornly clinging on to their hatred of Israel and feel the need to have them all destroyed.

There’s a reason why Jordan didn’t want them.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-violence.html

Since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack, settlers there have killed more than 120 Palestinians and injured at least 2,000. They have forcibly expelled more than 800 Palestinians from their homes, blown up their generators and solar panels, and burned down tents of Bedouin herders.

Again: This has been going on not in Gaza but in the West Bank—which is governed by the Palestinian Authority, not by Hamas. Some of those killed were members of militant groups, but most were attacked simply because they were Palestinians. In any case, they had nothing to do with Hamas’ attack on Israel from Gaza.

Back on Oct. 25, President Joe Biden warned that the wave of attacks in the West Bank was “pouring gasoline” on the tensions unleashed by the war, saying, “It has to stop.” The killers “have to be held accountable.”

Yet Israeli officials have since said nothing about the settlers’ violence, not even after at least one incident where settlers attacked Israeli soldiers who were trying to stop their crimes.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-violence.html

Was there a comment there from you, Hugh?

I am aware of what you have posted, but if anyone thinks the atrocities of 7 October wouldn’t provoke a response, they are not living in the real world.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Post #601 in this thread, yesterday @ 09:32

A hit piece on Netanyahu is not evidence of an Israeli plan to prop up Hamas. I can see the logic in keeping the Palestinian Govts (for want of a better word) of Gaza and the West Bank separate to prevent a unified Palestinian state (which only strengthens my point about neither side wanting a two state solution).

It it offers no other evidence, apart from attempting to link the issuing of work permits to Gazan’s to the funding of Hamas, again with only conjecture and no evidence.

You’d better off looking towards the multitude of “charities” working in Gaza rather than Netanyahu’s government

Israel: World Vision Gaza boss diverted cash to Hamas https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36974350

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ts-2023-10-16/

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Pierre

A hit piece on Netanyahu is not evidence of an Israeli plan to prop up Hamas. I can see the logic in keeping the Palestinian Govts (for want of a better word) of Gaza and the West Bank separate to prevent a unified Palestinian state (which only strengthens my point about neither side wanting a two state solution).

There's plenty of evidence from his own mouth that he propped up hamas, Israeli newspapers are full of it and once this is over he'll be answering a lot of awkward questions

[Sephiroth]

Whilst it is emerging that Netanyahu is something of a bad egg, and that the Ultras propping him up have something of the Ayatollahs about them, Hamas did a very bad thing - far worse than freedom fighters (as they see themselves) can possibly justify.

The big picture is that Israel is potentially fighting for its existence. Wider scale war hangs in the balance and Iran gets off scot free.

In any case, Israel must wipe Hamas out and then control the consequences in Gaza. Actually they'll then have a golden chance to initiate prosperity there if the Ultras don't get even more stupid.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Whilst it is emerging that Netanyahu is something of a bad egg, and that the Ultras propping him up have something of the Ayatollahs about them, Hamas did a very bad thing - far worse than freedom fighters (as they see themselves) can possibly justify.

The big picture is that Israel is potentially fighting for its existence. Wider scale war hangs in the balance and Iran gets off scot free.

In any case, Israel must wipe Hamas out and then control the consequences in Gaza. Actually they'll then have a golden chance to initiate prosperity there if the Ultras don't get even more stupid.

Palestinians are the only people fighting for their existence.

Israelis live safely under the iron dome, and it’s by their own incompetence a thousand Israelis got killed by unmonitored Hamas militants who - ironically - Israel can now confidently confirm are all in hospitals, churches, ambulances, refugee camps, etc.

Originally Posted by jfman

Israelis live safely under the iron dome, and it’s by their own incompetence a thousand Israelis got killed by unmonitored Hamas militants who - ironically - Israel can now confidently confirm are all in hospitals, churches, ambulances, refugee camps, etc.

Well you’ve given yourself away now, haven’t you. Victim blaming? For shame, and a new low, which is saying something. Denial of agency is a common blind spot in your thinking but this really takes the biscuit.

A thousand Israelis were killed because a large raiding party of murderers used their agency as human beings to kill them. It’s as simple and dreadful as that.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

Well you’ve given yourself away now, haven’t you. Victim blaming? For shame, and a new low, which is saying something. Denial of agency is a common blind spot in your thinking but this really takes the biscuit.

A thousand Israelis were killed because a large raiding party of murderers used their agency as human beings to kill them. It’s as simple and dreadful as that.

It was Israel’s blind spot, not mine. The role and purpose of the state is to defend its people, it’s perfectly possible to criticise the failings of the state without blaming the victims on an individual level.

Somewhat ironic that you give the IDF a free pass on the agency front under the pretence of having a strategic or calculated objective.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by jfman

Palestinians are the only people fighting for their existence.

Israelis live safely under the iron dome, and it’s by their own incompetence a thousand Israelis got killed by unmonitored Hamas militants who - ironically - Israel can now confidently confirm are all in hospitals, churches, ambulances, refugee camps, etc.

Hence they've only bombed 18 out of 35 hospitals in Gaza because they were the ones hamas were in

The only hospital capable of treating people suffering from cancer shut 10 days ago and those patients are now starting to die

9700 civilians have been killed in the Ukraine by Russia in the 21 months since the invasion began, Israel has killed that many in a month 65% of whom are women and children and the death toll will undoubtedly be higher than that as there are large numbers buried under rubble no one even knows about yet

Originally Posted by jfman

Palestinians are the only people fighting for their existence.

and 240+ hostages ...

Originally Posted by jfman

Israelis live safely under the iron dome, and it’s by their own incompetence a thousand Israelis got killed by unmonitored Hamas militants ...

Safely ? Still doing PR for Hamas I see.
Btw, it was over 1400, not "a thousand".
[ Plus potentially 240 or so more, see above ].

[jfman]

It’s not PR for Hamas to point out objective reality.

1 in 200 Palestinians have been (directly) killed in this conflict in the last month. Not to mention those with health conditions running out of medication, in hospitals running out of power, etc.

A tragedy happened in Israel, but the notion that they Israel as a nation are fighting for their very existence against a terror group armed with gliders and guns is Zionist propaganda.

---------- Post added at 08:00 ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Hence they've only bombed 18 out of 35 hospitals in Gaza because they were the ones hamas were in

The only hospital capable of treating people suffering from cancer shut 10 days ago and those patients are now starting to die

9700 civilians have been killed in the Ukraine by Russia in the 21 months since the invasion began, Israel has killed that many in a month 65% of whom are women and children and the death toll will undoubtedly be higher than that as there are large numbers buried under rubble no one even knows about yet

[tweetiepooh]

Israel is always under threat of annihilation, and I reckon there are other actors waiting to see if she puts herself into a diplomatic situation that they can move against her with reduced international risk.


And we do differentiate between Palestinian and Hamas. I disagree that all Hamas are Palestinian, some/many/most are likely outsiders. And those outsiders do want to destroy Israel and, if possible, all Jews. And many of them don't really care about the Palestinians either, likely a reason they are so willing to use them as shields.



Israel doesn't help herself by not being more forceful against the ultras who keep pushing into Palestinian territory. Those ultras are also too selective about scripture. They like the bits that talk about all the land being theirs west of the Jordan but seemingly ignore repeated calls about justice to "foreigners". (Ex 22:21; 23:9; Lev 19:33-34; Deut 10:18-19 - love foreigners) There is special reference to knowing what it like to be the ill-treated foreigner. This is especially pertinent now since the Jews have be "foreigners" in more places than when the scriptures were written.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

9700 civilians have been killed in the Ukraine by Russia in the 21 months since the invasion began

Ukraine is just a little bit bigger (so anything is harder to accurately hit) and the Ukrainian military are not hiding in hospitals or among the population. Ukraine can also shoot down a large number of the missiles aimed at them, and have largely prevented any air strikes, so not really a valid comparison. Despite all this, Russia is still attacking civilian targets.

---------- Post added at 23:30 ---------- Previous post was at 23:26 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s not PR for Hamas to point out objective reality.

Your posts are not even close to being objective, they are almost 100% directed against Israel in some manner.

[jfman]

That’s because Israel’s actions are contemptible.

There’s no duty to condemn Hamas in every post, so I don’t. I have in the past but I’m not doing Israeli PR for them by framing their own actions with a sympathetic narrative that they are unworthy of.

I’ve pointed out before nobody will find a single post where I defend Hamas. A challenge nobody took me up on then and people are free to do so now.

There is no side to pick.Both are behaving disgustingly.

The only people I have any sympathy for are the ordinary Palestinians who have nowhere to go unless they leave the only place that has been home to their families well back into the 20th century.Thay have been kicked in the teeth time and time again,labeled as terrorists if they dare to try and defend themselves.I used to defend the plucky Israelis in setting up a new state after the horrors of WW2 and Auschwitz But in recent years the scales have fallen from my eyes.They are no longer th plucky little state I once thought but a bully involved in land grabbing.