Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] - Page 430

rryles · 13-05-2008, 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Jones

That's assuming that there IS a legitimate Phorm/Webwise user agent. My personal view is - there won't be one. Based on analysing the silences and fudges from my ISP. What they DONT say is far more revealing than what they DO say, it's why I keep asking them awkward questions - to find out which ones they don't answer.

I suspect that a big reason for not answering questions is they don't have a good enough understanding of the technologies involved. At least the ones who are allowed to talk to the public don't.

jelv · 13-05-2008, 10:18

My effort http://groups.google.co.uk/group/Goo...a967c5b?hl=en#

I've also fired something off using http://www.google.com/support/bin/request.py

NTLVictim · 13-05-2008, 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by labougie

The man can get more $1000 whores than you can shake a stick at. And that's what it's all about.

Real men don't have to pay for it.

AlexanderHanff · 13-05-2008, 10:25

I have made my contact in Google aware that there is some talk from webmasters with regards blocking Googlebot in robots.txt in order to try and stop Phorm doing the dirty. I expect they will not be very happy with the news

Alexander Hanff

Portly_Giraffe · 13-05-2008, 10:27

A categorical reply just now from Amazon:

Quote:

You can be assured that we take the security and privacy of our
customers' information very seriously.

We have no connections with Phorm and do not use their services
including OIX and Webwise.

Please note that we are not in a position to control the software or
other devices used by your internet service provider. If you are
concerned by the use of Phorm or other devices by your internet
service provider we can only encourage you to contact your internet
service provider directly to solve the issue.

I would take "We have no connections with Phorm" to mean that in addition to having no plans for Phorm/OIX, they are not in serious discussions with them. Frankly I don't see that Phorm would have anything to offer Amazon which is why I was surprised by their initial reply to Florence, although that may simply have come from a confused junior.

I think I am reassured. Any views?

AlexanderHanff · 13-05-2008, 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Portly_Giraffe

A categorical reply just now from Amazon:

I would take "We have no connections with Phorm" to mean that in addition to having no plans for Phorm/OIX, they are not in serious discussions with them. Frankly I don't see that Phorm would have anything to offer Amazon which is why I was surprised by their initial reply to Florence, although that may simply have come from a confused junior.

I think I am reassured. Any views?

Any big brand distancing themselves from Phorm in public statements and customer services emails, is a good thing

Now if we were to setup an Anti-PhormUKPRTeam we would be spinning that news out to the press as:

"Amazon say NO! to Phorm and OIX on Privacy grounds."

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 10:32 ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 ----------

YAY! PhormUKPRTeam are BACK!!!

Dude where you been? Did Kent forget to pay your ISP bill or something?

Alexander Hanff

Rchivist · 13-05-2008, 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Portly_Giraffe

A categorical reply just now from Amazon:

I would take "We have no connections with Phorm" to mean that in addition to having no plans for Phorm/OIX, they are not in serious discussions with them. Frankly I don't see that Phorm would have anything to offer Amazon which is why I was surprised by their initial reply to Florence, although that may simply have come from a confused junior.

I think I am reassured. Any views?

I'm not reassured - because when I asked them, they sent me some Phorm spin straight out of Kent's dictionary.

"Dear Customer,

What makes the technology behind OIX and Webwise truly groundbreaking is that it takes consumer privacy protection to a new level. Our technology doesn't store any personally identifiable information or IP addresses, and we don't retain information on user browsing behaviour. So we never know - and can't record - who's browsing, or where they've browsed.

If you have any concerns, please highlight them to your internet service provider.

Thank you for shopping at Amazon.co.uk"

and I have never had a satisfactory follow up when I queried it.

Now - where did the Amazon employee get that text from if they have had nothing to do with Phorm/Webwise/OIX ?

Hello PhormUKPRTeam. Come to check on strategy or are you going to TALK to us? We've got lots of new questions and lots of new laws to discuss. Please go and have a read of my questions on the Questions and More Questions thread that BT Beta forums have,
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=3152&tstart=0

although it doesn't provide answers any more.

AlexanderHanff · 13-05-2008, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Jones

I'm not reassured - because when I asked them, they sent me some Phorm spin straight out of Kent's dictionary.

"Dear Customer,

What makes the technology behind OIX and Webwise truly groundbreaking is that it takes consumer privacy protection to a new level. Our technology doesn't store any personally identifiable information or IP addresses, and we don't retain information on user browsing behaviour. So we never know - and can't record - who's browsing, or where they've browsed.

If you have any concerns, please highlight them to your internet service provider.

Thank you for shopping at Amazon.co.uk"

and I have never had a satisfactory follow up when I queried it.

Now - where did the Amazon employee get that text from if they have had nothing to do with Phorm/Webwise/OIX ?

Could have just been someone from support who pasted stuff directly from Phorm's press releases because they didn't properly read your original questions.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 10:44 ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 ----------

PhormUKPRteam, I have a direct question for you which I am sure is reiterated by the many thousands of people who are watching this debate.

When are Phorm going to honour their commitment to release the unedited footage from the 80/20 Thinking PIA Public Meeting (held on 15th April 2008)?

My understanding is that there might be some technical problem with the video (odd that both cameras would have technical issues at the same time). If this is the case why hasn't the audio (which was recorded separately) been released or a transcript?

The public really want to see/hear/read a transcript of what happened in the Q&A Panel at the end of the presentations/speeches.

Phorm claim to be transparent and trustworthy, yet almost an entire month since the event and the video footage which they promised would be released unedited onto the web, is still being withheld.

So, where is it?

(I even posted in red so you can't miss the question!)

Alexander Hanff

Florence · 13-05-2008, 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Portly_Giraffe

A categorical reply just now from Amazon:

I would take "We have no connections with Phorm" to mean that in addition to having no plans for Phorm/OIX, they are not in serious discussions with them. Frankly I don't see that Phorm would have anything to offer Amazon which is why I was surprised by their initial reply to Florence, although that may simply have come from a confused junior.

I think I am reassured. Any views?

I had this reply to my last contact with them after I linked them into this thread. They also said they didn't like their emails being posted in forums but before I posted I had checked for any disclaimers.

It would seem though looking at what Phorm plan to do that if someone visited amazon thinking of buying a book,cd,dvd or larger item phorm piggybacking will pick up the keywords then target thos person with adverts from OIX platform businesses so vertualy directing the amazon possible customer elsewhere.

---------- Post added at 10:51 ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

PhormUKPRteam, I have a direct question for you which I am sure is reiterated by the many thousands of people who are watching this debate.

When are Phorm going to honour their commitment to release the unedited footage from the 80/20 Thinking PIA Public Meeting (held on 15th April 2008)?

My understanding is that there might be some technical problem with the video (odd that both cameras would have technical issues at the same time). If this is the case why hasn't the audio (which was recorded separately) been released or a transcript?

The public really want to see/hear/read a transcript of what happened in the Q&A Panel at the end of the presentations/speeches.

Phorm claim to be transparent and trustworthy, yet almost an entire month since the event and the video footage which they promised would be released unedited onto the web, is still being withheld.

So, where is it?

(I even posted in red so you can't miss the question!)

Alexander Hanff

I also wish to know when this will be released, Phorm will not gain any friends in the DU camp showing these tactics to keep information supressed infact it creates the opposite that the new phorm is no different to the old 121media.

I could get definiton of open and transparent but I am sure you already know so this. Hope that the phorm video and or the recording is released soon rather than later since the longer it goes on the less chance of the public trusting you.

AlexanderHanff · 13-05-2008, 10:58

Also, I find it a little concerning that a company who claims to be technologically advanced enough to spy on every single web page we visit that is not sent over HTTPS without any danger of the system being hacked or suffering flaws which would cause it to break; yet they are unable to post a video (which they promised) onto the Internet due to technical problems. It doesn't make anyone swell with confidence at Phorm's abilities.

Alexander Hanff

icsys · 13-05-2008, 10:58

Oops.... PhormUKPRteam have gone!

And not even a 'Hello!'

AlexanderHanff · 13-05-2008, 11:01

Our questions are just too difficult for them. We should try and put them in CBeebies dialect so there is no ambiguity.

BTW your sig is "exactly not correct" </Kent>. According to Kent's own words at the PIA meeting, Phorm currently have 0 companies partnered with OIX in any official form, they are merely in discussions with a number of interested parties.

Alexander Hanff

3x2 · 13-05-2008, 11:02

Inphormed Consent

The "content freely available" argument is a non-starter. The communication itself is protected not the content. Just as an example ...

Let's suppose I request a page from i-think-i-may-have-cancer.com, a public site with lots of freely available help and advice on everybody's favourite subject.

Even though it is a public site, the moment I request a page it becomes a private communication. (I would even suggest that the initial DNS lookup is protected - just knowing I went there is information in itself) The fact that the content is freely available to anyone with a net connection is irrelevant.

The way I navigate the site, the search terms I use and the pages I dwell on are all unique to me and together form a private communication. Private for good reason - this is potentially very valuable information to some companies.

Phorm's blacklist argument is bogus - they simply cannot know what any one of the millions of URL's on the net lead to. i-think-i-may-have-cancer.com may have several less obvious aliases for very obvious reasons.

i-think-i-may-have-cancer.com probably has very strict published privacy policies. No logging, no cookies, no advertising links etc. All in place to re-assure users that their 'consultation' will remain anonymous. I would suggest that they most certainly don't consent to the session being wire tapped - even where the customer does.

The copyright angle has been covered earlier but Phorm are certainly, for most sites, creating an un-authorised derivative work.

Comparison with others
There is no comparison. Other companies, including Google, must fight it out in the 'free market'. Phorm is the equivalent of dropping a tape-worm in the gut of the internet. The ISP's are effectively saying to both content providers and consumers "From now on ..if you want to eat..."

icsys · 13-05-2008, 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

BTW your sig is "exactly not correct" </Kent>. According to Kent's own words at the PIA meeting, Phorm currently have 0 companies partnered with OIX in any official form, they are merely in discussions with a number of interested parties.

Alexander Hanff

Information taken from http://phormwatch.blogspot.com/
Also these companies have statements quoted on the Phorm website suggesting they are already 'in bed.'

AlexanderHanff · 13-05-2008, 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by icsys

Information taken from http://phormwatch.blogspot.com/
Also these companies have statements quoted on the Phorm website suggesting they are already 'in bed.'

Yes because the video of the Q&A Panel from the meeting hasn't been released yet, which is when he said it (in his little tangle with Charles Arthur from the Guardian regarding the Guardian dropping OIX).

So you only have my word for it (unless anyone else here stayed for the Q&A?)

Alexander Hanff