anti americanism fashionable

Originally Posted by dr wadd

The whole point of the original post to which I was replying was in the context of the terrorists *not* hating the USA. If they didn`t hate the USA they wouldn`t fly planes into their buildings, it really isn`t a difficult concept to understand.

Your view of the world seems to be shockingly narrow. Are you honestly stating that the hate of these terrorists is something innate that would be expressed anyway, and that they just happen to have picked on the USA for some reason? You need to take into account the reasons for the hate, and as wrong as the events of 9/11, the USA pretty much had it coming for a long time, and they just brought it upon themselves.

I think it's you that has the narrow view. You despise the USA so much that you find it possible to say 'they had it coming'.

Does the rape victim 'have it coming' because she wears a short skirt for a night out?

Nobody, but nobody, whatever they have done, deserves to have this happen to them, just because someone else doesn't like the politics of their government.

How can you argue against the invasion of Iraq? Surely, by your measure, Saddam 'had it coming' too?

[downquark1]

Your view of the world seems to be shockingly narrow. Are you honestly stating that the hate of these terrorists is something innate that would be expressed anyway, and that they just happen to have picked on the USA for some reason? You need to take into account the reasons for the hate, and as wrong as the events of 9/11, the USA pretty much had it coming for a long time, and they just brought it upon themselves.

The problem is they don't see it or refuse to except it. Their blatent support of Israel has got the eastern Muslims to dislike them, the refusal of the chiototo accord didn't go down well in europe, and the Iraq issue and offended the UN. And the best they can come out with is 'we saved you in WW2 from the nazi so you have to like us'.

I've seen a website owned by a right-wing american and he said he would ban the entire contenant of europe from posting on it if he could. He then adds 'with the exception of the UK' because apparrently we are full of culture and good because we supported them in the war.

Originally Posted by towny

I think it's you that has the narrow view. You despise the USA so much that you find it possible to say 'they had it coming'.

Does the rape victim 'have it coming' because she wears a short skirt for a night out?

Nobody, but nobody, whatever they have done, deserves to have this happen to them, just because someone else doesn't like the politics of their government.

How can you argue against the invasion of Iraq? Surely, by your measure, Saddam 'had it coming' too?

This is a foolish analogy. The rape victim isn`t going around trying to make everyone else fall in step with their line of thinking, stomping all over anyone who disagrees with them.

But the USA does take that attitude. You're either with them or against them as their president pointed out. So the situation is simple, dance to our drum or you are the enemy. It's no wonder they are hated so much. They are as dictatorial as Saddam ever was.

I never stated that they necessarily "deserved" 9/11, but that doesn`t negate the possibility of them having brought it upon themselves.

I've also never stated that action shouldn`t have been taken against Iraq. My issue is with the manner in which that was taken, with the USA and the UK conveniently ignoring international law when it suits them. They do not have the right to commit a pre-emptive strike without a clear and present danger. North Korea is constantly threated by the USA, by the actions of Bush it has been demostrated that they have every right to pop a nuke off to the California.

The USA is hated by many people for the way it treats the rest of the world, and until it realises that it can't go around dictating how the governments of other countries are run under the threat of force it will continue to risk these attacks. But as a country it is far too dumb and arrogant to bother questioning why people despise them in the first instance.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by towny

I think it's you that has the narrow view. You despise the USA so much that you find it possible to say 'they had it coming'.

Does the rape victim 'have it coming' because she wears a short skirt for a night out?

Nobody, but nobody, whatever they have done, deserves to have this happen to them, just because someone else doesn't like the politics of their government.

How can you argue against the invasion of Iraq? Surely, by your measure, Saddam 'had it coming' too?

He is not suggesting they deserved it, merely that the event didn't come as a surprise.

Originally Posted by downquark1

He is not suggesting they deserved it, merely that the event didn't come as a surprise.

Thanks for the backup, it's nice to see that there are other people that can take into account the wider context.

As for despising the USA, I think that does pretty much sum up my feelings about the country at the moment, but I've only had that opinion since Bush came to power. As soon as democratically elected leader is in power, and preferably a Democrat, then there is every chance that they will redeem themselves.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

That attitute of being superior to anyone else is called patriotism. We are damn proud of who we are, what we have accomplished, and what we believe. To people that disagree with the way we do things, that has got to be annoying. *shrug* Deal with it.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines a patriot as "a person who vigoursly supports their country and is prepared to defend it", so you are being patriotic by supporting your country.

It also defines arrogant as "having an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities".

Believing you are better than everyone else is arrogant.

[philip.j.fry]

Good article here http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackage...1&section=news

I especially like this comment from one american ex-pat living in London:

Christine Swanson, back home after taking the kids on the morning run to school, said: "I am frustrated. As horrible as September 11 was, it was a real opportunity to move forward in a positive way.

"There was a lot of goodwill to tap into and it took the incredible talent of George Bush to p*ss it all away in two years."

Edit Lol, this comment from G. Bush really does show just how out of touch with reality he really is:

But Mr Bush lavished praise on Mr Blair, whom he described as †œthe least political person Iâ₠¬ÃƒÆ’¢â€žÂ¢ve dealt withââ‚ ¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ�

[Jerrek]

Are you honestly stating that the hate of these terrorists is something innate that would be expressed anyway, and that they just happen to have picked on the USA for some reason? You need to take into account the reasons for the hate, and as wrong as the events of 9/11, the USA pretty much had it coming for a long time, and they just brought it upon themselves.
I have no idea why they would act in such a manner. I just know that *I* wouldn't. And, since they have demonstrated what kind of people they are, I have no itention of pleasing them or making them happy. I don't want such friends. Apparently, you want such friends.

You just demonstrated your hatred for saying "You had it coming." What a completely and utterly stupid comment. Signs of a narrow mind. What exactly did the United States do to deserve it, as you put it?

Sorry, I got the impression that the USA were taking care of the rest of the world, only to paraphrase Father Ted, they seem to be doing it in an Al Pacino kind of way.
Not completely, otherwise Mugabe wouldn't be in power. But we do look out for ourselves and our allies.


Their blatent support of Israel has got the eastern Muslims to dislike them
My apologies for not making extremist Muslims--that beat their wifes, rape their prisoners, fly planes into buildings, and blow themselves up among women and children--happy. There are plenty of followers of Islam that I can live with and be friends with. But those extremist Muslims I really don't care about.

What about those recent comments by Mahattir? "Jews are ruling the world." SO WHAT?


the refusal of the chiototo accord didn't go down well in europe
Because we didn't want to dance to the Europeans' stupid rules. Hah. Kiss my ass. You go ahead and ruin your economy. Meanwhile, we will just continue living in prosperity. It isn't the United States that have double digit unemployment figures and negative economic growth...

and the Iraq issue and offended the UN
We really don't care for the United Nations. I hope those Congressmen that stated they want to get the United States out of the U.N. are working on it. The U.S. has violated more U.N. regulations than any other nation and should be kicked out of it if we don't withdraw from it ourselves.

And the best they can come out with is 'we saved you in WW2 from the nazi so you have to like us'.
You are rather narrowminded if this is all you see.


This is a foolish analogy.
No it is not. You just don't like it because it illustrate the point towny was making so very nicely and it doesn't fit with your narrow view of the world.

But the USA does take that attitude. You're either with them or against them as their president pointed out.
Exactly.

So the situation is simple, dance to our drum or you are the enemy.
I believe he was referring to the war on terror. So yep.

It's no wonder they are hated so much.
Because we want to get rid of terrorists? The same ones you seem to have quite a nice understanding with?

I never stated that they necessarily "deserved" 9/11, but that doesn`t negate the possibility of them having brought it upon themselves.
You have a short memory. You said, "They had it coming."

My issue is with the manner in which that was taken, with the USA and the UK conveniently ignoring international law when it suits them.
There is no such thing as international law. We don't recognize it. If you dislike that, well, deal with it.

They do not have the right to commit a pre-emptive strike
Yes we do. Deal with it.

North Korea is constantly threated by the USA, by the actions of Bush it has been demostrated that they have every right to pop a nuke off to the California.
North Korea is all mouth with nothing else. Besides, China and Japan are dealing with it, for the time being.

The USA is hated by many people for the way it treats the rest of the world
read: no free handouts from the rich people of the States.

But as a country it is far too dumb and arrogant to bother questioning why people despise them in the first instance.
Ah, as I said, it really isn't in our best interest to dance to the rest of the world. 80% of the world is a toilet. Do we really want to do what they say? I mean, there is a reason why the rest of the world is in such a crappy state.

As soon as democratically elected leader is in power, and preferably a Democrat, then there is every chance that they will redeem themselves.
Ignoring your obvious lack of education regarding the 2000 election, if Bush wins by a landslide victory, we will of course redeem ourself, right? It is very unlikely that a Democrat will win. Three key democrat states lost 2 electoral votes each and it was given to Florida, Texas, and another southern state due to population shifts. If all else remains the same, with just the shift in electoral votes, Bush will win with more than 8 electoral votes.

And now looking how the Democrats are losing in the south makes it really hard for them to win. They lost California's gubernational race. And Louisiana and Kentucky. One Georgia senator, a Democrat, threw in his support for President Bush. The Republicans will most likely gain more seats in the Senate and House in the 2004 election, as well as retaining the White House.

The only reason you like a Democrat is because they are more inclined to dance to the rest of the world's demands. Which I don't want, which is why I vote Republican.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Ah, as I said, it really isn't in our best interest to dance to the rest of the world. 80% of the world is a toilet. Do we really want to do what they say? I mean, there is a reason why the rest of the world is in such a crappy state.

And an extremely large part of that 80% is the United States...

[danielf]

Jerrek,

That is such a nice summary of reasons why people dislike the US.

There is no international law? I guess the people at the international court of justice are just making things up in the war crime tribunals?

Geneva Convention?
Not for the people at Guantanamo Bay, as they are not prisoners of war, but illegal combatants, cought in the war on terrorism.

Kyoto?

Never mind the world is going to pots, blame the Chinese, Indonesians, Brazilians for burning trees. The US is per capita one of the largest contributors to Greenhouse gases but you can't be bothered to so anything about it, for fear of the economy.

And to top it off, you will not be held accountable for possible warcrimes committed by your soldiers. As a special court is being set up in The Hague to deal with war crimes anywhere in the world, you refuse to sign up, and use your wealth to coerce developing countries into signing treaties saying they won't deliver your soldiers to this court.

What's that? Covering your back for another unjust war for personal gain? Surely, you feel that war crimes must be prosecuted. Why not if they're committed by Americans?

[Jerrek]

And an extremely large part of that 80% is the United States...

That was not what I was referring to, and you know it. I'm referring to third-world countries.

There is no international law? I guess the people at the international court of justice are just making things up in the war crime tribunals?

We do not recognize that "court" of "justice." It is a politically motivated instrument to get some control over the U.S. justice system. What exactly is wrong with our own courts? Why go after Tony Blair and George W. Bush, but Saddam, Mugabe, and the guy from North Korea is free? It is a farce. So, NO international law (we are a sovereign nation), and no "court" of "justice."

Geneva Convention?
Not for the people at Guantanamo Bay, as they are not prisoners of war, but illegal combatants, cought in the war on terrorism.

Please. Like Saddam adhered to the Geneva Conventions. But I don't see you go after him. Hmmm, I wonder why? Could it be that ...?

Which of these conventions did the United States break, by the way?

Never mind the world is going to pots, blame the Chinese, Indonesians, Brazilians for burning trees. The US is per capita one of the largest contributors to Greenhouse gases but you can't be bothered to so anything about it, for fear of the economy.

Kyoto is a socialist system designed to take money away from first world nations and send it to third-world dicators' pockets. We have no interest in that.

And to top it off, you will not be held accountable for possible warcrimes committed by your soldiers.

I guarantee you a soldier guilty of misconduct will be tried before a military tribunal. There is no need for the rest of the world to appoint themselves as judges over us.

As a special court is being set up in The Hague

First problem. Lovely little self-appointment of the European Union, wouldn't you say?

to deal with war crimes anywhere in the world

Provided the "crimes" are commited by an American or other person of the western world (Saddam, Mugabe, and the other dictators can be overlooked because they are the greatest humanitarians in history.)

you refuse to sign up

Damn right.

and use your wealth to coerce developing countries into signing treaties saying they won't deliver your soldiers to this court.

Coerce? We simply ask them to sign a treaty with us. What is wrong with that?

OH WAIT!!!! It isn't approved by the Europeans! How CAN we do something without Europe's approval?!!!

Covering your back for another unjust war for personal gain?

The majority of Iraqis are going to disagree with you on this "unjust" part.

Surely, you feel that war crimes must be prosecuted. Why not if they're committed by Americans?

You're making an assumption that we don't prosecute war crimes. We do, unless you can provide conclusive proof that it is U.S. policy not to. In any case, I find it mildly amusing how you liberals are so concerned about us Americans, but Mugabe's little humanitarian missions in Africa is A-OK.

[philip.j.fry]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

That was not what I was referring to, and you know it. I'm referring to third-world countries.

Do you think that those people living in those countries particularly like it? Do they enjoy living from day to day not knowing whether they will have enough to eat? Do you think that they enjoy living in fear? I suspect not, it's not their fault that they were born into this part of the world, no more than it's your fault that you were born in a free country where you could be provided with freedom, education and a good standard of living.

I'm not saying that you should apologise for this, because as I said, this is no-ones fault but simply dismissing the rest of the world as 'a toilet' and saying it's their own problem is no way to deal with things.
It's under these conditions that terrorism thrives, branding all these people as terrorists is not right, the terrorists are the minority...unfortunately the minority with the power (read weapons).

We all live on one planet, 'if a butterfly flaps it's wings...' as the saying goes. Without help, these third world countries will never be able to move beyond the state they are in at the moment and that help can only come from first world countries. Things like Kyoto are there to address these problems, ignoring them and continuing to support one countries economy at the expense of another is a sure way to bring eventual destruction on everyone. The same goes for any country, not just the US.

[Jerrek]

Do you think that those people living in those countries particularly like it?

I have no idea. Some of them, no. Some of them, yes. Some of them are particularly eager to express how bad the western lifestyle is and that us "infidels" should all die. So, if they want to live in such crappy conditions because Allah tells them to, or if you would rather have your child die than to slaughter one of the quadzillion cows on the street and feed your child, whatever. I'm not about to force my beliefs onto you.

Do they enjoy living from day to day not knowing whether they will have enough to eat? Do you think that they enjoy living in fear? I suspect not, it's not their fault that they were born into this part of the world, no more than it's your fault that you were born in a free country where you could be provided with freedom, education and a good standard of living.

Except that I wasn't. I'm a refugee. Regardless, that isn't the point.

The point is, these same people keep electing numbskill idiotic dictators. WHY is it that Africa is incapable of governing themselves? WHY? Yes, now someone is going to call me racist, but I don't care. It is the truth. I do pity the people that live in bad conditions, but damn, STOP ELECTING and SUPPORTING dictators!

I'm not saying that you should apologise for this, because as I said, this is no-ones fault but simply dismissing the rest of the world as 'a toilet' and saying it's their own problem is no way to deal with things.

You know, I really don't want to tell the rest of the world how to live and what to do. I think I'll just ignore them. If we don't, people yell at us for unilateral action. And for U.S. imperialism. And other crap. Who are YOU to say to another person in another country how he should be living his life?

And then you get 4/5 of the world angry at the U.S. for not giving out free handouts. Big whoopie ****. If you want to increase your standard of living, stop electing and supporting dictators, implement a free enterprise capitalistic economic system, deal with crime (executing anyone that rape, murders, or kidnaps is a good start), and get rid of the religions in the government.

We all live on one planet, 'if a butterfly flaps it's wings...' as the saying goes. Without help, these third world countries will never be able to move beyond the state they are in at the moment and that help can only come from first world countries.

I completely disagree. Germany came out of a mess in under 5 decades. So did Japan. And countless other countries. If these people are serious about fixing their countries, start implementing some basic common sense practices. It isn't MY job and my country's job to fix up other countries.

Things like Kyoto are there to address these problems

Like redistributing the wealth from first world nations to dictator's pockets.

[Russ]

I think this thread just about sums it all up! Jerrek, when you live in a community with others (such as the US with the rest of the world) you simply must compromise on some things, however the US seems completely incapable of doing that and thinks there's nothing wrong with it and still wonders why terrorists will blow up buildings there. No, it's not because your country is the ultimate super power on Earth, it's because of your (country's) attitude.

[Jerrek]

What attitude exactly? And are you saying that justifies the terrorists actions? Because, in my mind, no matter what a person's attitude is, it does not warrant such action.