Motability

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Then why defend the indefensible?

Who's defending the indefensible? I have simply acknowledged that the press as a whole is not 100% accurate at all times. It might well be the DM report on this topic is accurate and that's why I thought an airing here might be useful.

Interestingly, the response has been very defensive.

Originally Posted by ianch99

Repeating this childish retort doesn't help your argument to counter the view, seemingly held by most here, that the Daily Mail is a pernicious and morally bankrupt publication.

I have asked the same question of individual posters none of whom have replied. That's not repeating a childish retort it is a valid, grown up question.

Either people don't read the Mail so are commenting blind or they do read the Mail but don't want to admit it because you might call them morally bankrupt.

Of course your main aim is to divert from the swindled £70m. So returning to topic, what is you view on that?

[rogerdraig]

divert i thought i gave you an easy way to report it ( prety sure the link was there)

what would i do about it NOTHING other than investigating reported information as
its below the rate worth bothering about and is costing more to chase than it gets back

This government feels the same see page 1020 DLA Fraud

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...e-feb-2016.pdf

I don't want someone on it who is fit and well but i also don't want people being harassed because of the way the press especially goes after it

A friend of mine was verbally abused on two occasions in the last year by some random person who decided because they couldn't see her disability that it was fine to shout at her for using a disabled bay with out having a wheelchair. ( if you visit some of the disability forums you will find this is becoming more common )

that is what worrying about an insignificant figure is doing and yes i don't think £70 million is worth that sort if abuse

70 million sounds a lot until you put it into context of government spending at which point like it or not it's a trivial amount. We would all prefer a zero fraud figure but that's not possible there will always be some who will fiddle just as some do with their taxes and that problem is costing us significantly more. Aggression towards claimants has increased and absolutely correct about disability forums many people are being attacked and intimidated by some because the media has made a mountain out of a molehill aided by certain politicians and the rhetoric they use.

As for how can I debunk a paper I don't read very easy when I see multiple articles quoted as saying e-cigarettes are more harmful and dangerous then tobacco or that e-cigarettes will renormalise tobacco smoking and nice flavours will encourage children to get into smoking. The daily mail has been one of the very worst in misinformation on e-cigarettes that's how I can debunk something I do not read.

Back to the topic there comes a point where what you expend outweighs what you can collect and fraud within some of our benefits has reached that point, numerous reports have clearly stated fraud within the welfare system is not high though what there is is undesirable and we compare favourably to many nations. Trouble is it's such a damn easy scapegoat for lazy and inept politicians and there are always media outlets happy to create a problem and get us at each other's throat.

Originally Posted by Kursk

As it is the system is being defrauded of around £70m. I don't know why this loss of funding doesn't seem to overiy concern others especially genuine recipients and I am left to draw conclusion from the information provided in a 'nasty little rag' and from the churlish responses of a few indignant CF contributors. Sigh.

£70 million is a lot of money ,the problem is that relentlessly chasing all fraud can lead to genuine claimants being victimised ,assumptions being made that all claimants are fraudsters or lazy sods ,you yourself admit to sitting in Kwik Fit and making a judgement based purely on what you saw ,then you started a thread based on the assumption that the people you saw where somehow fiddling the system ,if i'm honest i've probably done that myself as have a lot of other people .It's ok to try to stop fraud but becoming fixated on stopping it leads to problems for genuine claimants

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by rogerdraig

divert i thought i gave you an easy way to report it ( prety sure the link was there)

what would i do about it NOTHING other than investigating reported information as
its below the rate worth bothering about and is costing more to chase than it gets back

This government feels the same see page 1020 DLA Fraud

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...e-feb-2016.pdf

I don't want someone on it who is fit and well but i also don't want people being harassed because of the way the press especially goes after it

A friend of mine was verbally abused on two occasions in the last year by some random person who decided because they couldn't see her disability that it was fine to shout at her for using a disabled bay with out having a wheelchair. ( if you visit some of the disability forums you will find this is becoming more common )

that is what worrying about an insignificant figure is doing and yes i don't think £70 million is worth that sort if abuse

At what point do you consider it worth bothering about? As £70m "isn't much in the grand scheme of things" when should the fraud be addressed? At £100m? £200m? Never? This is not a baiting question; I assume there is a point at which you would feel enough is enough?

And do you think that disabled people are being challenged more often because others perceive that abuse of the system is on the increase or reached an (unchecked and) unacceptable level? I agree that the verbal abuse experienced by your friend is unpleasant; could it be a collateral consequence of the relaxed attitude toward cheats?

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

70 million sounds a lot until you put it into context of government spending at which point like it or not it's a trivial amount. We would all prefer a zero fraud figure but that's not possible there will always be some who will fiddle just as some do with their taxes and that problem is costing us significantly more. Aggression towards claimants has increased and absolutely correct about disability forums many people are being attacked and intimidated by some because the media has made a mountain out of a molehill aided by certain politicians and the rhetoric they use.

As for how can I debunk a paper I don't read very easy when I see multiple articles quoted as saying e-cigarettes are more harmful and dangerous then tobacco or that e-cigarettes will renormalise tobacco smoking and nice flavours will encourage children to get into smoking. The daily mail has been one of the very worst in misinformation on e-cigarettes that's how I can debunk something I do not read.

Back to the topic there comes a point where what you expend outweighs what you can collect and fraud within some of our benefits has reached that point, numerous reports have clearly stated fraud within the welfare system is not high though what there is is undesirable and we compare favourably to many nations. Trouble is it's such a damn easy scapegoat for lazy and inept politicians and there are always media outlets happy to create a problem and get us at each other's throat.

If I don't pay my Council tax the system will eventually send me to jail. If I don't pay a speeding fine, the system will double my penalty and pursue me to the ends of the Earth until I pay or send me to jail. There are mechanisms for enforcing the law. Benefit cheats should be pursued as enthusiastically as people who won't pay their Council Tax or who speed imho.

As I mention above, unless the process of law is seen to be relentlessly promoted for all types of crime, attitudes to those perceived as getting away with it will harden and others will get caught in the crossfire. I understand the point you are making but, generally speaking, doing nothing when something is wrong has proved a soft option with wider ramifications.

Originally Posted by martyh

£70 million is a lot of money ,the problem is that relentlessly chasing all fraud can lead to genuine claimants being victimised ,assumptions being made that all claimants are fraudsters or lazy sods ,you yourself admit to sitting in Kwik Fit and making a judgement based purely on what you saw ,then you started a thread based on the assumption that the people you saw where somehow fiddling the system ,if i'm honest i've probably done that myself as have a lot of other people .It's ok to try to stop fraud but becoming fixated on stopping it leads to problems for genuine claimants

Ok, you have mentioned Kwik fit again and for fun I googled kwikfit/motability/fraud (or something like that) and it threw back this:

EIGHT Kwik-Fit bosses have been sacked after an inquiry into a scheme allowing free repairs for disabled drivers. The managers, all from Scots branches, were among 32 who were suspended after a series of raids last month. The majority have returned to work. Kwik-Fit are scrutinising repairs dating back to 2003 when the firm were first awarded the £30million contract for the Government's Motability programme. The investigation has focused on claims of systematic abuse of the deal, which gives 520,000 disabled drivers free tyres, exhausts and brakes at Kwik-Fit. Workers are alleged to have defrauded the scheme to line their own pockets.

It is an old report, I have no idea if it is true or not but, well, there you go.

The last 3 posts have been more constructive thank you. For my part, I do accept that my OP was lazily constructed. It was meant as a conversation starter not as some pre-planned, deeply considered, vindictive attack that seems to be the way it has been taken. After that the usual firing from the hip ensued.

So what is your solution to the problem? and how much money do we throw at trying to recover this 70 mil that may be spread across thousands of people is it worth a 100 mil just so we are seen to be chasing the issue down. Also worth remembering very often the fraud figures also contain errors within the system itself so that 70mil may be way north of the true fraud figure once you take overpayment into account. No one is suggesting that fraud in any form is acceptable or that it should be ignored but the sheer scale of the beaurocracy involved here means money will disappear regardless of attention paid.

[dilli-theclaw]

Natalie and I are out this Thursday choosing a new car which will either be a skida yeti or a ford c max.

Do I feel somehow 'guilty' well as with all the disability benefits I claim I do indeed tend to think long and hard about claiming at all.

But then I've been accused of not being a genuine case before so maybe I'm not a good judge.

[rogerdraig]

at the point where you get more back by chasing it

or if it was so widespread that it affected the point of it

this would be far far higher than the rate it is which is low compared to most other countries and very low compared to fraud in other areas

no system is ever perfect and expecting it to be or even striving to hard for it to be is futility and as pointed it can cause far more harm than any good it could do

[Osem]

Originally Posted by dilli-theclaw

Natalie and I are out this Thursday choosing a new car which will either be a skida yeti or a ford c max.

Do I feel somehow 'guilty' well as with all the disability benefits I claim I do indeed tend to think long and hard about claiming at all.

But then I've been accused of not being a genuine case before so maybe I'm not a good judge.

A skida? Just be a little gentler with your right foot.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

So what is your solution to the problem? and how much money do we throw at trying to recover this 70 mil that may be spread across thousands of people is it worth a 100 mil just so we are seen to be chasing the issue down. Also worth remembering very often the fraud figures also contain errors within the system itself so that 70mil may be way north of the true fraud figure once you take overpayment into account. No one is suggesting that fraud in any form is acceptable or that it should be ignored but the sheer scale of the beaurocracy involved here means money will disappear regardless of attention paid.

Laissez-faire is not something I go along with. It is no good having laws if they are not enforced. £70m may be way south of the true figure; we just won't know for sure until the law is rigorously applied. I can't see how improving the efficiency of the already existing admin systems would be a bureaucratic nightmare.

Law-breaking can be contagious. The usually law-abiding can be tempted when they see others getting away with it. Or they get angry.

Originally Posted by dilli-theclaw

Natalie and I are out this Thursday choosing a new car which will either be a skida yeti or a ford c max.

Do I feel somehow 'guilty' well as with all the disability benefits I claim I do indeed tend to think long and hard about claiming at all.

But then I've been accused of not being a genuine case before so maybe I'm not a good judge.

No-one is judging here. As a genuine claimant, do you feel more could/should be done about those who milk the system?

Originally Posted by rogerdraig

at the point where you get more back by chasing it

or if it was so widespread that it affected the point of it

this would be far far higher than the rate it is which is low compared to most other countries and very low compared to fraud in other areas

no system is ever perfect and expecting it to be or even striving to hard for it to be is futility and as pointed it can cause far more harm than any good it could do

There are angry people in car parks who don't share your point of view.

Originally Posted by Osem

A skida? Just be a little gentler with your right foot.

And change your underpants more often

So you don't have an idea how to cut fraud to zero, I highly doubt the level of fraud is higher then the government says given their agenda to benefits so it's a safe bet that figure is the max of fraud and overpayments. When people are caught they tend to be prosecuted more harshly then many other types of crime including violent crime so again not sure what it is you want done. I've said before and I'll repeat that the welfare system does need reform but it has to be proper reform not the cost cutting this current government is doing to make sure the system targets those who need the help and support.

[TheDaddy]

It's always the vulnerable, decent, genuine claimants that get hit by crack downs and cuts for those very reasons, the thieves and shysters will just carry on filling their boots at their expense, useless wastes of of space whose lack of ambition is only matched by their sense of entitlement

[peanut]

I don't see what fraudsters have anything to do with hitting the genuine claimants. Other than sending out the usual propaganda that all claimants are faking so making any cuts to disability will be welcomed and accepted by the gullible mail readers etc.

Of course there are those that was put on IB and DLA in the past do need reassessing but now it is a cost cutting exercise from the start, where the genuine are no longer genuine because the tests are so flawed that people are being healed of their disability or illnesses within 45 minutes of seeing an assessor. But that seems perfectly acceptable as nothing is being done about it.

If you can pick up a coin, sit, stand, talk, walk 20 metres and put your hand in your top pocket, then regardless of whatever disability or illness you are deemed fit for work. And you wonder why people give up hope.

[techguyone]

Finally someone to talk sense into Kursk (good luck) he's on a 'mission' despite there being very many far more worthy objectives to choose from, saving potentially many more millions if not Billions - No.
Our man Kursk wants to pursue those motability people with religious fervour!

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

So you don't have an idea how to cut fraud to zero

Nope, and to be fair to me, I never claimed that I did. But nor do I think it requires anything innovative: the mechanism for tightening up is already in place.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I highly doubt the level of fraud is higher then the government says given their agenda to benefits so it's a safe bet that figure is the max of fraud and overpayments.

You could drive an electric scooter through the supposition .

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

When people are caught they tend to be prosecuted more harshly then many other types of crime including violent crime so again not sure what it is you want done.

It's not a matter of what I want done; every taxpayer, every benefits beneficiary and everyone responsible for administering the system should want cheats stopped and made to repay everything they have stolen.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I've said before and I'll repeat that the welfare system does need reform but it has to be proper reform not the cost cutting this current government is doing to make sure the system targets those who need the help and support.

As if by magic, we agree .

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

It's always the vulnerable, decent, genuine claimants that get hit by crack downs and cuts for those very reasons, the thieves and shysters will just carry on filling their boots at their expense, useless wastes of of space whose lack of ambition is only matched by their sense of entitlement

A more stringent system will possibly temporarily inconvenience some genuine claimants but this is what it will take to nail the thieves. Why should we put up with these people? It isn't ideal I know but better for the longer term health of the system and the awards that can be made to those in real need.

Originally Posted by peanut

If you can pick up a coin, sit, stand, talk, walk 20 metres and put your hand in your top pocket, then regardless of whatever disability or illness you are deemed fit for work. And you wonder why people give up hope.

Presumably, the tests are designed to indicate a reasonable level of dexterity and mobility. You don't feel they truly test fitness for work so what needs to be adjusted? There are probably many 'able-bodied' full time working taxpayers who have enough aches and pains so as to struggle with some of those tests but that won't qualify them for motability.

Originally Posted by techguyone

Finally someone to talk sense into Kursk (good luck) he's on a 'mission' despite there being very many far more worthy objectives to choose from, saving potentially many more millions if not Billions - No.
Our man Kursk wants to pursue those motability people with religious fervour!

Oh gawd, you're back . There are many things to set right I agree and every journey starts with a single step.

You just don't want this subject mentioned do you?